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Minority attempt to subvert and command


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19 hours ago, fides' Jack said:

I agree with what you're saying, but this nonstory created exactly the kind of fear that they will now use to get rid of Trump for good.  Prison time is coming, and not just for him, but for his supporters, too.

Given that virtually all leaders of the left continued promoting the 2020 riots (which caused 10-20 billion dollars of damage, some estimates go higher) for months, the hypocrisy of their response to the 10-20 thousand dollars worth of damage in the capitol is appalling (I'm sure the number they give eventually will be multiplied many times to give airs).  In terms of dollars and cents, the left's riots in 2020 were literally a million times worse.  The capitol is a public building, and in a sense, is owned by all citizens.  The thousands of destroyed businesses and homes in the 2020 riots were most certainly not.  And there is proof that at least one of the violent rioters in the capitol was antifa (there is conflicting evidence about a few others).

None of the higher-ups in the media really denounced the riotous activities that ended in dozens of peoples' deaths and countless lives completely destroyed, even after months of the same stuff (there were a few scattered, hushed statements by the left that ended up buried).  Many in the media said they didn't go far enough.  Trump denounced the protest in the capitol within 1 hour (which Twitter deleted in the next hour), and all they can say is that he didn't act fast enough.  They accuse him of inciting violence by saying Americans should fight for their freedom, while they hold up pictures of grotesque decapitated Trump doll heads (on multiple occasions), and call for burning down people's homes, and make active death threats, and angrily confronting private citizens and public officials, and call for actual murderers to go free from prison while at the same time call for people to be imprisoned simply for not wearing a mask.  They have murdered billions of babies (1.5 billion since the 60s) while attacking, certainly verbally and often physically, the very people who are begging them to let them adopt their kids, just to save them from murder.  

If anyone still thinks Trump is the enemy, they're blind.

 

Let's not forget they also murdered a cop. And another committed "suicide by cop"; I mean loosely speaking, killed herself by force of her own stupidity, compelling a cop to shoot her as she advanced on him in the manner of a feral animal through a busted window. Not to mention the disease they spread, so desirous were they of exercising their precious right to mass demonstrate. 

You are correct that the mob changed nothing nor do I believe they ever intended to change anything. It was play for them, a WWE match all fun and fantasy, except the violence was real.  A threat to democracy they were not.  This summers "direct action" on the other hand. Those rioters are making change happen, forcing democratically elected governments to bend to their will. 

 

 

 

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The problem with what is happening is that everyone's conflating a lot of different groups that were present at the capitol. There was a legitimate protest with legitimate protest permits.  you m

With respect, it might be a matter of perspective, but I do not regard current events in America as a non-story.  To me, it is an unprecedented attack on the democratic process and an unfolding situat

With all due respect, you’re a little old lady, a hemisphere away, getting her news through a biased media.    The violence is not acceptable, but at the root of the discontent is how different s

8 minutes ago, Lilllabettt said:

You are correct that the mob changed nothing nor do I believe they ever intended to change anything. It was play for them, a WWE match all fun and fantasy, except the violence was real.  A threat to democracy they were not.  This summers "direct action" on the other hand. Those rioters are making change happen, forcing democratically elected governments to bend to their will. 

Exactly.  This fact is clear-as-day, and people just can't see it.

Well, I do think they changed something - they gave new strength and vigor to the false accusations against Trump, and directly or indirectly, to all conservatives.  A real persecution is coming soon.

 

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BarbaraTherese

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At this point anyway, I am going to back out of this thread.  The direction the thread has taken is quite obvious I think, and a quite sad and familiar circular motion has taken over.

Much is asked of most everyone today that prioritizing is needed, or what really is important is abandoned for what is futile and pointless.

 

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On 1/13/2021 at 9:53 PM, Lilllabettt said:

You are correct that the mob changed nothing nor do I believe they ever intended to change anything. It was play for them, a WWE match all fun and fantasy, except the violence was real.

You honestly don't think that certain members of the mob did not have an earnest intention to change the result of the vote?

That seems to be a bit unreasonable, given that Trump has been attempting to overturn the result of the vote for the past month, and that his general indications to the crowd were to protest in order achieve this result.

I mean, if "WWE fun and fantasy" were the only goal here, that could have been accomplished anywhere. In the streets of DC. On the White House Lawn. In front of the capital. There is no need to violently storm your way into the building, start killing people, and physically threaten the people tallying the vote, if you just want a bit of fun and fantasy.  I don't think this aspect of your conclusion makes much sense.

But let me ask you - what type of evidence would convince you that some members of the mob had a true intention to change the result? I mean, do they need to swear an Oath on the Bible that says "I am committing this violence because I do not want Biden elected, so help me God"? What else would you need to see exactly?

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6 hours ago, Peace said:

You honestly don't think that certain members of the mob did not have an earnest intention to change the result of the vote?

That seems to be a bit unreasonable, given that Trump has been attempting to overturn the result of the vote for the past month, and that his general indications to the crowd were to protest in order achieve this result.

I mean, if "WWE fun and fantasy" were the only goal here, that could have been accomplished anywhere. In the streets of DC. On the White House Lawn. In front of the capital. There is no need to violently storm your way into the building, start killing people, and physically threaten the people tallying the vote, if you just want a bit of fun and fantasy.  I don't think this aspect of your conclusion makes much sense.

But let me ask you - what type of evidence would convince you that some members of the mob had a true intention to change the result? I mean, do they need to swear an Oath on the Bible that says "I am committing this violence because I do not want Biden elected, so help me God"? What else would you need to see exactly?

Mmm I dunno, a vaguely realistic if vanishingly small prospect of success, to start with. Maybe there would have been a longer delay before the invention of computers or telephones? And copy machines? I'm not sure you understand the 10 weird tricks for executing a succesful coup ... you need like literally, an army. A collection of brawling mental midgets with criminal records and alternative lifestyles won't cut it. 

This is, for Trump and the Maga crew, an elaborate face saving exercise in "lost cause" narrative making. I don't understand the part you wrote about the location of their mostly peaceful but fiery protest? Where else would they role play their fantasy?

This past summer in Wisconsin Minnesota Washington and Oregon, there was the trend of barricading police stations with people inside and setting them on fire. One of my neighbors (I live in a cop neighborhood) caught two peaceful protestors in his backyard pouring out a gas cannister. These activities were undertaken with the understanding that there existed a realistic chance of success in using terror to compel the government to make political changes favorable to criminals. In many places, including my state, this has been actually achieved. It's called domestic terrorism, we've lived thru it. 

There was never any realistic chance, not even a small one, that the mob on "stop the steal" day was going to succesfully stop "the steal." They could have blown up the building itself, killing everyone inside. Trump would still not be president.  It's not like, if Congress doesn't certify by Jan 20, Trump stays in office. It's troubling if people think interruptions in arcane parliamentary procedure portend the collapse of the federal government.  But actually I don't think people - whether capitol invading Maga types or breathless pearl clutching reporters- actually think this. This is just a fantasy people indulge to suit the narrative they prefer.  

 

 

 

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I dunno, there seems to be a closeness qualitatively, though perhaps somewhat more distant quantitatively, between a violent and angry group storming the the capitol, and an actual full on military coup. A more competent demagogue might have even been successful given the same scenario.

Throw a couple disgruntled general into the mix along with some troops loyal to them, bring a few key transportation and media hubs into play, now you have a junta.

That is no wilder than some of the garbage I have seen peddled by some conservatives lately.

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1 hour ago, Nihil Obstat said:

I dunno, there seems to be a closeness qualitatively, though perhaps somewhat more distant quantitatively, between a violent and angry group storming the the capitol, and an actual full on military coup. A more competent demagogue might have even been successful given the same scenario.

Throw a couple disgruntled general into the mix along with some troops loyal to them, bring a few key transportation and media hubs into play, now you have a junta.

That is no wilder than some of the garbage I have seen peddled by some conservatives lately.

 

I will give you that some of the imagery is perhaps ... similar. But like you said real life coups have disgruntled generals, the control of key media and transportation hubs and more often than not, tanks. The coopting of public institutions. 1 mostly peaceful protest won't do it.

The "insurrection" was put down in a matter of hours with a single bullet. The rioters did not seem to be super committed to the cause. Obvs. not willing to die for "the revolution" or whatever. There ARE people like that out there, but this group was not that. They fully expected to go wild, tear stuff up, throw punches, be real tough guys, feel like they saved face and "we showed them" and get on planes and go home next day. The dead Maga rioter was the first to climb thru that 1 broken window. The cop that shot her told her "stop, or I'm going to shoot you." She did the stupid thing and got what was coming to her. None of her friends followed her to give their lives for president orangutan. Reason being, sh*t got real for them.  You can see their small brains turning over the new information in the video. "Oh.  she got shot. this is not a game. Well goodbye then!"

It's the same garbage whoever is peddling it. it's trumpkins' dream and everybody else's nightmare. Just not based in reality. 

Fingers crossed that people who ARE serious don't get any ideas from seeing how easy it was for these boobs to break in. 

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Some of the stories floating around though, seem to at least potentially imply a darker undercurrent than the disgruntled redneck LARPer narrative. Granted it is the media and it is politics, so one cannot take anything at face value. But the pipe bombs, the possible secret payments of radicalized groups, and some of the rumours of advance planning and 'serious' tactics, all of that together is enough for me at least to not discount some of those theories. 

For example, is it impossible that this was a legit attempted paramilitary coup, but ya boy The Donald is so widely hated and incompetent that he was not able to convince any actual military leaders to get in on it? Or that he is so arrogant that he thought his LARPer brigade would be enough to seal the deal? 

I do not necessarily think so, but I also am not confident enough to completely dismiss the idea.

Call it entertaining the idea without actually holding it, or however that Chesterton quote goes. I prefer a bland truth to an exciting fiction. And maybe we never really get to the bottom of the exact God's honest truth on this one. So the world goes.

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The problem with what is happening is that everyone's conflating a lot of different groups that were present at the capitol.

There was a legitimate protest with legitimate protest permits.  you may think they are wrong about the thing they are protesting, but they had the right to assemble peaceably about it, as most of them went there to do. 

Then you have the speakers at that protest, most notably Trump.  IMO Trump's speech at that protest engaged in basically all the tropes any speech / protest in Washington usually engages in, but because of the things that subsequently happened these phrases that are commonly used in our political discourse are being conflated out of context and being said to be "incitement" (phrases like being 'strong', about 'fighting', about visiting congress, about sending a message, etc--all standard fare for protest speeches, the only thing that wasn't maybe standard fare was Giuliani's 'trial by combat' phrase, though I think that's a case of an out-of-touch politician trying to sound cool with some kind of game of thrones reference).  that's a dangerous precedent because under that understanding of 'incitement', there are a good deal of BLM protest speakers who absolutely ought to be protected by the first amendment who could also be accused of 'incitement' for speeches they gave at protests that devolved into riots.  they often use similar tropes of 'fighting' and 'being strong' and even add to it common tropes of words like 'revolution'

Beyond the legitimate protest, there was a smaller relatively organized group with highly organized plans to break in.  These people had posted about it publicly and were known to law enforcement.

And beyond that group, there were people in the crowd primed to be riled up and join in that smaller group.  This is why the well-known tactic of agent provocateurs, for example, is a successful one--get people into the middle of a highly heated protest crowd and have them agitate and you can easily trigger mob mentality that derails any effect a peaceful protest was otherwise meant to have.  Now, an agent provacateur is someone who doesn't actually believe in the cause but just gets the crowd riled up to justify a crackdown (first best exposed as police tactics during WTO protests back in the 90's/00's) -- while there may have been ppl like this John Sullivan guy that has been arrested who were antifa provocateurs trying to rile up the crowd, the majority of the well-organized agitators were actually people who were pro-trump, and of course the people they stirred up to join them were pro-trump as well.

All of the above groups should not be conflated.  Trump and his crowds had a legitimate right to be protesting and saying the things they were saying, whether you agree or disagree with them.  The pre-planned people are the most dangerous group, those are the ones law enforcement really needs to be targeting, although anyone who joined in in the moment through mob mentality also should face punishment (though these should, of course, be a lower priority, particularly any that ended up walking in after the big clashes had gone on and weren't actually involved in any of those)

Beyond that, a serious investigation and accountability needs to be done about why the security was so lax when there really should have been a visible deterent show of force given what law enforcement clearly knew about the group who had actual plans to try to break in.  One of my favorite lawyer youtubers gives a great breakdown (and he's pretty good at calm objective presentation of the facts IMO) and if you watch his videos, I think you'll come away with a sense that this really was preventable and anyone involved in not having a good deterrent show of force at the capitol that day ought to be held politically accountable for their negligence.

 

ultimately, however, much of the discourse surrounding 'insurrection', 'treason', etc, seems to engage in the kind of conflation I'm talking about, and will only serve to dig the hole of division further.  the small group could be accurately called "seditious" or "insurrectionists"--the rest that got agitated and swept up alongside them would most accurately be called "rioters" IMO (yes, the symbolism of the place where they rioted triggers strong emotions, but that's what most of the members of that group were--a mob of rioters).  If we don't make these distinctions, we are only going to escalate these problems and turn a riot into a self-fulfilling-prophecy of increasing violence.

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17 hours ago, Lilllabettt said:

Mmm I dunno, a vaguely realistic if vanishingly small prospect of success, to start with. Maybe there would have been a longer delay before the invention of computers or telephones? And copy machines? I'm not sure you understand the 10 weird tricks for executing a succesful coup ... you need like literally, an army. A collection of brawling mental midgets with criminal records and alternative lifestyles won't cut it. 

This is, for Trump and the Maga crew, an elaborate face saving exercise in "lost cause" narrative making. I don't understand the part you wrote about the location of their mostly peaceful but fiery protest? Where else would they role play their fantasy?

This past summer in Wisconsin Minnesota Washington and Oregon, there was the trend of barricading police stations with people inside and setting them on fire. One of my neighbors (I live in a cop neighborhood) caught two peaceful protestors in his backyard pouring out a gas cannister. These activities were undertaken with the understanding that there existed a realistic chance of success in using terror to compel the government to make political changes favorable to criminals. In many places, including my state, this has been actually achieved. It's called domestic terrorism, we've lived thru it. 

There was never any realistic chance, not even a small one, that the mob on "stop the steal" day was going to succesfully stop "the steal." They could have blown up the building itself, killing everyone inside. Trump would still not be president.  It's not like, if Congress doesn't certify by Jan 20, Trump stays in office. It's troubling if people think interruptions in arcane parliamentary procedure portend the collapse of the federal government.  But actually I don't think people - whether capitol invading Maga types or breathless pearl clutching reporters- actually think this. This is just a fantasy people indulge to suit the narrative they prefer. 

Well first I agree with you that there are probably a lot of folks who just got caught up in the "WWE fantasy". Sure, people just want to vent frustration or whatever. I'll grant you that there were probably a lot of those folks there. It's kind of like when the more serious BLM guys go out with the intention of achieving particular political objectives, but then you have a bunch of guys join in who just want to get a TV without paying for it.

I also understand your point about not having a legit chance of being able to change the election. Basically you see people attempting something that would be idiotic and you think "They can't really be trying to do that, because it's beaver dam near impossible and nobody could be so stupid to think that could actually work."

I am here to tell you that there are plenty of people who are that stupid. I think we are viewing the situation from our perspective, as reasonable, intelligent, rational, and dare I say faithful Catholics. The folks storming the Capitol obviously aren't the cream of the crop when it comes to discerning the likely outcome of particular conduct. I mean, even if venting a bit of frustration is the goal. That obviously isn't an intelligent way of doing it. Most of those folks are going to jail and their lives are going to be worse-off because of what they did. It's not a smart choice to make. We aren't exactly dealing with smart people here.

On top of that, there still was basically a plan in place to change the result. It was not a good plan, but it was a plan nonetheless. Stop certain electoral college votes from being tallied, which would force the vote back to Congress, where Trump would presumably have an advantage (inspired by the 5th season of House of Cards I might add). Now, that obviously was a terrible plan but you literally have Giuliani still calling politicians during the riots to try to effectuate this plan. And Trump certainly gave a lot of these people a false hope during his speeches that the game was not over and that their protests (peaceful or otherwise) could still effect a positive outcome (apparently he thought the protests would put more pressure on VP Pence to reject certification, which could put the matter back in the courts or Congress).

So it very well could have been that many of the rioters believed that their actions could have achieved the desired outcome of changing the result. From our viewpoint as reasonable people it is folly to reach that conclusion, or to think that Trump's plan could actually work, but obviously we are not dealing with reasonable people who make intelligent decisions.

So yeah, I think that some portion of these folks were earnestly attempting to effect a change in the ultimate outcome, however small the chance and however incompetent they may have been at the "business of insurrection", if you will.

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On 1/6/2021 at 7:56 PM, BarbaraTherese said:

Indeed, heartfelt prayer for what is unfolding in the USA capital.  We are receiving live telecasts from Washington and I will be praying daily, as I have been since Trump took the Presidency.  Since then, the moving finger kept writing and having writ, moved on.............cause and effect in process........

Only my two cents: What is happening in Washington, for one only at this point, is an attack on democracy and on the flagship of democracy, the United States of America, throughout the world.

History shows that about all a disgruntled mob needs is leadership.  They found this in Donald Trump as his volatile words are echoed throughout the mob and upheld by them as their motivation and catch cry.  Trump is a talented salesman and he identified his market (including Catholic anti-abortion movement's quite considerable votes I imagine) to take him to power and invested in his identified market using advertising skills.  In all probability if Washington for one is returned to law and order, it will not be the end of attacks on democracy I feel.  Out of the mob will arise a sort of under-leadership perhaps marshalling groups under them and finding a sense of unity of the various groups in Donald Trump and his propaganda investment using his considerable advertising skills. 

Leadership out of the mob will promote the initial Trump volatile words as motivation and catch cry to inflame mob action, even violence.  Donald Trump will probably continue to tweet his inflammatory comments from a golf course somewhere or other. 

Since the mob attack in Washington, the Trump tweets have been mixed messages - and quite obviously so.   

Trump is the skilled puppet master pulling the strings of dissenters from the democratic process.  Some probably do believe his lies, other are using them to their own purposes.

The United States is a very segregated, racist and in many ways backwards society. I've been all across this country. I went to Atlanta and had to get out in less in 24 hours. I felt like there was a demonic presence there, literally... Charlie Daniels wasn't kidding when he sang the Devil went down to Georgia! You could tell white people and black people only come together around the common god of the almighty dollar, which is worshipped openly there. Down in Florida it's the same thing, the atmosphere of racial separatism is thick in the air, combined with the usual defensiveness of country folk. All the south is like that, really. I loved Houston, a really great city and in many ways one of the most racially progressive, but it's also a starkly segregated city despite its diverse growth. The major cities (LA, NY) are the same, though there the racism is buried under a flashier cosmopolitanism.

If one looks at America objectively, through the lens of what is known as "political economy," as one would look at any country, say, a country in Africa, it's obvious what's going on. As they says, it's the economy, stupid. But in America "the economy" is seen merely as consumer spending. The economy is a global system, and America is no longer at the center of it by divine right. White people in America are falling behind in the global economy, except in concentrated areas like LA and NY where all the wealth and education is. Most of America is still stuck in the 20th and 19th centuries, some parts are still in the 18th century. It's no surprise that conservative white people in America have turned a document from the 18th century Englightenment (the US Constitution) into Holy Scripture. Literally, they consider it an appendage to the Bible. This country is economically, socially, and even politically backwards (the largest voting bloc in America is non-voters).

The hard truth is that white people in America are no longer able to compete in a global economy. And of course, if decent white folks can't compete, then in their minds there must be a conspiracy against them. Of course, there's lot of propaganda about the riot at the capitol, trying to paint it as an insurrection against the "temple of democracy." America is not a temple of democracy and never has been. As conservatives love to remind everyone, America is a republic, not a democracy. The basis of the American system is what is known as bourgeois methodological individualism of the 18th century. Democracy as we know it is largely a product of the 20th century, and particularly the post-WWII period...remember, black people in America didn't even get formal civil rights until 20 years after the end of WWII, when the African continent was just beginning to throw off colonial subjugation. White people in America see this sort of 20th century democracy as an assault on traditional bourgeois individualism, where every decent white man has a chance to own his own plot of land. This was the fantasy of 19th century America when the modern economic system was just forming (it was the same in Australia as I'm sure you know).

Donald Trump is a greasy pimp and always was. White people in America sold their soul to get behind the anti-Christ, because he promised to put white people back on top. The hard truth is white people are waking up to a globalized world where they are a global minority, and they simply can't compete anymore...and they resent especially the global centers of power in their own country, LA and NY, because this is where all the white people with power and education are located.

It was once said of the place where Jesus was born, can anything good come from Nazareth? So it is today in America. Can anything good come from West Virginia? Louisiana? Alabama? These are global backwaters and always were, except that they built temporary fortunes on the backs of African slaves and the global cotton industry. When those dried up, and the slaves were freed and revolted, then white people no longer had a real identity, which they have tried to rediscover through the stupidity of the Confederate flag and all it symbolizes.

People often say we need a "conversation about race." But white people can't have a conversation about other people, because they're afraid to even have a conversation about themselves. America has been trying to exorcise a demon of racism that has been haunting this continent for 500 years. As Jesus said, and it's worth remembering today on MLK Day, once you sweep the house and drive out the demon, 7 demons come and the last state of that man is worst than the first. So it is today. America is a demon-possessed country and Donald Trump stands atop the hill of dung like the lord of the flies. He's a beast and those who follow him bear the mark of the beast. They will kill for him, do anything he says, because they are afraid to face the reality that they are losing, because they have fallen behind history and can no longer compete. That's the irony of all this. White people simply can't compete in a global world, and the white people who CAN compete are in LA and NY, not in West Virginia or Arkansas.

In short, white people are starting to feel what it's like to be from Jamaica or Angola or Bangladesh, to be caught in the web of a global system that you can't compete in and are structurally held down by. White people in America have no "language" of global or racial solidarity, because all they know is the fantasy of an America that no longer exists. This is not the 19th century, except in the American heartland.

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