Michigan shooters parents to be charged with manslaughter

[Mercedes]

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/parents-suspected-michigan-high-school-shooter-are-charged-involuntary-rcna7479

This has to be part of the justice sought in this case.  Victims and survivors need answers to how such an event is allowed to happen. Children shooting up schools is above and beyond the regular gun crime people have come to tolerate as part of American life.

[Vernon]

No we do NOT "tolerate" gun crime as "part of American life." I don't necessarily disagree with your premise. I just disagree with the insult.

[Mercedes]

5 hours ago, Vernon said:

No we do NOT "tolerate" gun crime as "part of American life." I don't necessarily disagree with your premise. I just disagree with the insult.

How would you characterise legal inaction against further gun crime after each massacre 'event' if not tolerance?  In the face of gun massacres, other nations have enacted stricter gun laws that have resulted in reduction of such crimes.

[Vernon]

What is your nation please? I would like to understand your perspective.

[Mercedes]

7 minutes ago, Vernon said:

What is your nation please? I would like to understand your perspective.

Could you answer my question first.  My nation has nothing to do with that.

[Vernon]

Yes your nation has much to do with it. Your perspective seems to be that you do things right in your country and that we don't. Besides that, your premises seem to be flawed. There is no "legal inaction" against mass murderers. They are sent to jail. Also, there is the other argument that guns should not be taken away from law abiding citizens.

I will confess that we tolerate the murders of millions of unborn babies in our country, to our disgrace. Feel free to preach to us about that and how your nation and other nations have risen above such barbarism.

[Mercedes]

19 minutes ago, Vernon said:

Yes your nation has much to do with it. Your perspective seems to be that you do things right in your country and that we don't. Besides that, your premises seem to be flawed. There is no "legal inaction" against mass murderers. They are sent to jail. Also, there is the other argument that guns should not be taken away from law abiding citizens.

 

These stories of school kids being shot up by other school kids are the first items on prime time news services globally because they are so shocking.  It's not a cultural thing in western countries apart from the US.  That's because if and when it does happen, swift legislation takes guns out of the picture.  There is no premise that owning a gun is a god given right consequently meaning massacres are tolerated by default.  

Edited December 4, 2021 by Mercedes

[cruciatacara]

Guns don't kill people...

people carrying guns kill people.

[Vernon]

1 hour ago, Mercedes said:

These stories of school kids being shot up by other school kids are the first items on prime time news services globally because they are so shocking.  It's not a cultural thing in western countries apart from the US.  That's because if and when it does happen, swift legislation takes guns out of the picture.  There is no premise that owning a gun is a god given right consequently meaning massacres are tolerated by default.  

Definitely there should be greater protection on campuses. In the US we're still of a mind that a citizenry should be armed. An unarmed citizenry is ripe for rule by despots. I would agree that guns should not be in the hands of criminals and the mentally ill and favor taking guns away from them, but not away from the old lady living alone in a rural area, or the woman whose ex is stalking her, or otherwise decent law abiding citizens who wish to protect themselves.

[Mercedes]

1 hour ago, Vernon said:

Definitely there should be greater protection on campuses. In the US we're still of a mind that a citizenry should be armed. An unarmed citizenry is ripe for rule by despots. I would agree that guns should not be in the hands of criminals and the mentally ill and favor taking guns away from them, but not away from the old lady living alone in a rural area, or the woman whose ex is stalking her, or otherwise decent law abiding citizens who wish to protect themselves.

Not even the smartest minds have come up with a way to make gun culture safer and since it's impossible to keep widely available guns out of the hands of criminals and the mentally ill, that constitutes tolerating gun crime, injury and death in the community.

[Vernon]

55 minutes ago, Mercedes said:

Not even the smartest minds have come up with a way to make gun culture safer and since it's impossible to keep widely available guns out of the hands of criminals and the mentally ill, that constitutes tolerating gun crime, injury and death in the community.

So you think all guns should be confiscated by the State and that only the State would have guns?

The problem is not the guns:

https://www.buzzworthy.com/switzerland-gun-laws/

[Mercedes]

13 minutes ago, Vernon said:

So you think all guns should be confiscated by the State and that only the State would have guns?

The problem is not the guns:

https://www.buzzworthy.com/switzerland-gun-laws/

I'll get you to read the article you linked to and from there, show me how it makes your case.

[Vernon]

I don't mean to derail the thread by once again bringing up a topic that you conveniently ignore: abortion. 

I don't so much have a problem that you are addressing an issue that pertains to our country, but that you seem to have a superior attitude as if you and your people are somehow so much more civilized and need to step in and teach us some lessons.

So here is something to consider. In England and Wales the abortion rate in 2020 was 21.9 abortions per 1,000 fertile women compared to the US's 13.5 abortions per 1,000 fertile women. Now I'm not saying our rate is anything to brag about. It's scandalous. But it's much better than in England and Wales. So why is it that they are killing their unborn babies at a much higher rate than than we are in the US? Why do they tolerate it? What is in their water that makes them so cold-hearted? We must set up some kind of commission here in the US and study this situation and see what we can do to help our morally depraved friends see the light and change their evil ways.

Edited December 5, 2021 by Vernon

[Mercedes]

Let us stay on topic here.  I'm 100% prolife Catholic and have been all my life.

You cite Switzerland as an example of a healthy gun culture.  Your article points out how the Swiss have a highly regulated system where children are taught all aspects of safe firearm use.  All males over 18 years have to go through national service, a process which helps identify unsuitable characteristics for gun ownership and use.  There's a lot of regulation.

The reality is that in Switzerland there is just as much mental illness, violent movie, video game and media accessibility etc all the things normally cited as reasons for school shooter events.  It's the focused regulation though that makes the difference.  A system of forced responsibility and accountability that ensures a safe society.  They have taken a path of not tolerating inevitable school massacres.

 

[Winchester]

On 12/3/2021 at 6:08 PM, Mercedes said:

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/parents-suspected-michigan-high-school-shooter-are-charged-involuntary-rcna7479

This has to be part of the justice sought in this case.  Victims and survivors need answers to how such an event is allowed to happen. Children shooting up schools is above and beyond the regular gun crime people have come to tolerate as part of American life.

The only gun crime that's tolerated in the US is government sponsored gun crime. Duncan Lemp was murdered by government terrorists and none of them were charged with murder. Daniel Shaver was murdered, and his murderers are still free.

All other gun crime is treated like a crime. In fact, self defense by commoners (like Kyle Rittenhouse or Marvin Guy, who shot at terrorists invading his home and has been held by the terrorist organization for 7 years without trial) is treated like a crime by the state. It's not tolerated.

[Vernon]

18 hours ago, Mercedes said:

Let us stay on topic here.  I'm 100% prolife Catholic and have been all my life.

You cite Switzerland as an example of a healthy gun culture.  Your article points out how the Swiss have a highly regulated system where children are taught all aspects of safe firearm use.  All males over 18 years have to go through national service, a process which helps identify unsuitable characteristics for gun ownership and use.  There's a lot of regulation.

The reality is that in Switzerland there is just as much mental illness, violent movie, video game and media accessibility etc all the things normally cited as reasons for school shooter events.  It's the focused regulation though that makes the difference.  A system of forced responsibility and accountability that ensures a safe society.  They have taken a path of not tolerating inevitable school massacres.

 

I'll try one more time to make the point you seem to be missing. Your attitude (in this thread and especially in another thread) has been what I see as condescending towards the US, as if you people are better and that we need you to step in and straighten us out. Yes we have problems, but no more than you do in your country. You just express your moral failings in different ways. In other words, you are obsessing over the spec in our eye while ignoring the board in your own.

[Winchester]

On 12/4/2021 at 4:20 PM, Mercedes said:

How would you characterise legal inaction against further gun crime after each massacre 'event' if not tolerance?  In the face of gun massacres, other nations have enacted stricter gun laws that have resulted in reduction of such crimes.

Violent crime has been declining globally since the 90s. It has declined in the US in spite of rising gun ownership. 

After 50 years of a brutal drug war, the various governments in the US can't manage to keep drugs out of their own prisons. An edict banning firearms would be to no effect. The state does not have that much control over society. You'll find when you research this properly that edicts don't reverse trends. The best thing you can do to combat gun violence is end the drug war. 

[Mercedes]

4 hours ago, Winchester said:

The only gun crime that's tolerated in the US is government sponsored gun crime. Duncan Lemp was murdered by government terrorists and none of them were charged with murder. Daniel Shaver was murdered, and his murderers are still free.
 

That's extremist fringe talk.  If it came down to whose authority we'd rather submit to, I'd rather a democratically elected rabble than wacky fringe ideologues.

Quote

All other gun crime is treated like a crime. In fact, self defense by commoners (like Kyle Rittenhouse or Marvin Guy, who shot at terrorists invading his home and has been held by the terrorist organization for 7 years without trial) is treated like a crime by the state. It's not tolerated.

Even though I think it's insane to keep tolerating those crimes, it's downright demonic to tolerate the shooting up of children in classrooms or playgrounds and yet nothing radical has been done to mitigate it.  In fact I predict and I'll be glad to be wrong, that there'll be a spate of them which seems to happen when one happens.

4 hours ago, Vernon said:

I'll try one more time to make the point you seem to be missing. Your attitude (in this thread and especially in another thread) has been what I see as condescending towards the US, as if you people are better and that we need you to step in and straighten us out. Yes we have problems, but no more than you do in your country. You just express your moral failings in different ways. In other words, you are obsessing over the spec in our eye while ignoring the board in your own.

I'm not the judgemental one here.

[little2add]

 human toll

There were 39,707 deaths from firearms in the U.S. in 2019. Sixty percent of deaths from firearms in the U.S. are suicides.

 More than half ( 23,941) died by firearm suicide.

According to data from CDC’s National Center for Health Statistics there were an estimated 93,331 drug overdose deaths in the United States during 2020, an increase of 29.4% from the 72,151 deaths predicted in 2019.

so roughly 16,000 people died unintentionally, violently by guns and 93, 331 by drug overdose.  

Compared to drug overdose deaths, gun violence is insignificant.  Compared to abortion deaths ( 630,000 in the US, 2019 ) both statistics are insignificant…

 

 

 

[dominicansoul]

I do believe the parents should be held to some responsibility for what their son has done...