Beauty pageants

[PadrePio]

I have a male friend who thinks beauty pageants like Miss Universe are "celebrating women". He believes they are good events. He is a practising catholic . I know events like Miss world, universe are cesspools of sexual immorality where the contestants have to stand 90% naked in front of men at least in 1 round and in the remaining rounds they have to wear provocative clothing 

I don't think a habit wearing women will ever win such events.

Can any one guide me to some good articles highlighting the spiritual and moral decay behind such events (either in this thread or as a PM)

[dominicansoul]

I think beauty pageants are demeaning to women.  That is just my opinion.  Women are often just looked upon as objects.  At least that is how it was in earlier pageants.  They've tried to add more topics to showcase candidate's intelligence but then that  gets all washed away and forgotten when the candidates walk out on stage in their bikinis and stiletto's 

 

[Peace]

3 hours ago, dominicansoul said:

I think beauty pageants are demeaning to women.  That is just my opinion.  Women are often just looked upon as objects.  At least that is how it was in earlier pageants.  They've tried to add more topics to showcase candidate's intelligence but then that  gets all washed away and forgotten when the candidates walk out on stage in their bikinis and stiletto's 

 

What is wrong with judging women based on their physique? Nobody really complains about bodybuilding competitions when people get on stage and show off their physique. I'm not sure why it becomes wrong all of a sudden if it is women in a bikini, but perhaps someone can explain it to me.

[Nunsuch]

1 hour ago, Peace said:

What is wrong with judging women based on their physique? Nobody really complains about bodybuilding competitions when people get on stage and show off their physique. I'm not sure why it becomes wrong all of a sudden if it is women in a bikini, but perhaps someone can explain it to me.

Perhaps because, in order to achieve that physique (and I would say the same for bodybuilders, female or male), people have to engage in unhealthy dietary practices and so on. Many beauty pageant contestants have eating disorders, just as many body builders consume dangerous "supplements" to build their muscles.

But, for the women, part of the problem is that they present unrealistic images of what the "ideal" woman is to young girls and others, who try to emulate them. Why not emulate and admire women (and men) for their accomplishments, their contributions to society, their true worth. Physical beauty is both superficial and fleeting. 

[Peace]

40 minutes ago, Nunsuch said:

Perhaps because, in order to achieve that physique (and I would say the same for bodybuilders, female or male), people have to engage in unhealthy dietary practices and so on. Many beauty pageant contestants have eating disorders, just as many body builders consume dangerous "supplements" to build their muscles.

Well I think that is a valid point. To the extent that the competitions cause people to gauge in unhealthy physical or mental behavior, they are bad events.

40 minutes ago, Nunsuch said:

But, for the women, part of the problem is that they present unrealistic images of what the "ideal" woman is to young girls and others, who try to emulate them. Why not emulate and admire women (and men) for their accomplishments, their contributions to society, their true worth. Physical beauty is both superficial and fleeting. 

Well I don't think it is an either/or situation. Just because we value physical beauty, does not mean that we do not also value other, more "substantive" characteristics, if you will.

If you are saying that the problem is that the competitions only really value the "physical" and cause us not to value any of the other characteristics, that would be a valid point too, I think.

But my question is slightly different. Is there anything really wrong with valuing physical beauty, in and of itself? I don't think so. Like if my and my buddy want to go to the gym, workout, eat healthy or what not, then compare ourselves in the mirror and be like "wow, your really did some great work on your chest, I can see that you put on a lot of muscle" or whatever - what's wrong with that? I can look at my buddy who is a trainer and recognize that he has achieved a better looking body than I have, and aspire to make mine look as good as his. I don't see what's wrong with that.

I mean, I think we can go to plenty of Catholic museums and see nude sculptures of ideal physical forms, and so forth, and admire them for their beauty. At least to me it seems pretty obvious that "physical beauty" is a real thing, a real gift, also something that can be developed through work, and that it is something that it is proper to admire. You see a sunflower or a rose and recognize its beauty, but when we recognize physical beauty in humans its wrong all of a sudden? It's superficial? I dunno about that.

The other point you made that was valid is about the "unrealistic expectations." Here, rather than "unrealistic" I might say "inaccurate". At least for me personally, most of the women you see on those shows are nowhere near what I find to be most beautiful in women from a physical perspective. For whatever reason on those shows they seem to be fixated on a particular type of look (the waif model type look) but to me there are tons of women in IRL that I think have more beauty. . .

[Nunsuch]

@Peace, I don't think we are in that much disagreement. I don't have anything against attractiveness. But if that is the PRIMARY reason someone is considered to have value, then I think it's rather superficial, and to me represents a misguided sense of priorities.

[chrysostom]

I'm not sure I have all the right answers to every counterpoint to this but I would say I'm not a fan of the swimsuit portion of beauty pageants because of the immodesty.

[PadrePio]

17 hours ago, Peace said:

What is wrong with judging women based on their physique? Nobody really complains about bodybuilding competitions when people get on stage and show off their physique. I'm not sure why it becomes wrong all of a sudden if it is women in a bikini, but perhaps someone can explain it to me.

Body building competitions for men fall into the same category

[Peace]

10 hours ago, PadrePio said:

Body building competitions for men fall into the same category

Why? What is wrong with trying to build a muscular appearance, and competing on that basis?

Two weight-lifters can lift weights and compete to  see who can bench press the maximum amount, its totally fine. The same two can lift weights and to see who can build bigger biceps, and it's immoral all of a sudden? I see no reason for that whatsoever, unless  you take the view that there is something inherently wrong with a muscular male physique.

[PadrePio]

4 minutes ago, Peace said:

Why? What is wrong with trying to build a muscular appearance, and competing on that basis?

Two weight-lifters can lift weights and compete to  see who can bench press the maximum amount, its totally fine. The same two can lift weights and to see who can build bigger biceps, and it's immoral all of a sudden? I see no reason for that whatsoever, unless  you take the view that there is something inherently wrong with a muscular male physique.

many body building competitions involve men standing infront of an audience in their underwear, at least in the part of the world where I live.

That makes the event sinful

[Peace]

13 hours ago, PadrePio said:

many body building competitions involve men standing infront of an audience in their underwear, at least in the part of the world where I live.

That makes the event sinful

Que?

That’s not a sin, nor is nudity. Practically half of the artwork in the Vatican has nudity.

[Nunsuch]

I'm far more concerned with the steroids and other problematic "supplements" that body builders feel compelled to take. They are dangerous (and, in many cases, illegal).

[PadrePio]

9 hours ago, Nunsuch said:

I'm far more concerned with the steroids and other problematic "supplements" that body builders feel compelled to take. They are dangerous (and, in many cases, illegal).

I guess you are a woman , when you say you are more concerned with steroids, you find it less problematic  compared to  seeing men in their underwear?

Perhaps that explains the difference b/w men and women. I guess for most men a women in her 80% revealing bikini is a source for mortal sin

[Nunsuch]

1 minute ago, PadrePio said:

I guess you are a woman , when you say you are more concerned with steroids, you find it less problematic  compared to  seeing men in their underwear?

Perhaps that explains the difference b/w men and women. I guess for most men a women in her 80% revealing bikini is a source for mortal sin

I'm more concerned about the steroids and supplements because they can cause permanent and serious physical harm. I think the concerns you express, while real, are more in the eyes of the beholder (who can always avoid watching) than for those who engage in the practice of, say, bodybuilding or excessive dieting. 

From what I understand, the steroids, etc., are the male equivalent of eating disorders for women. Both are extremely dangerous. 

Also, frankly, as a woman, I find men with overly developed musculature to be really UNattractive, and so I'm unlikely either to watch or to be "tempted" by such individuals. 

[Luigi]

1 hour ago, PadrePio said:

I guess you are a woman , when you say you are more concerned with steroids, you find it less problematic  compared to  seeing men in their underwear?

Perhaps that explains the difference b/w men and women. I guess for most men a women in her 80% revealing bikini is a source for mortal sin

Psychologists have looked into the differences between men looking at women and women looking at men. It's been a long time since I read it, and I can't quote any sources, although I think they'd be readily available on the Internet, perhaps in academic databases. Anyway, "the assumption that men respond more to visual sexual stimuli is generally empirically supported." I did find that on the Internet very quickly and easily, and there's a lot more where that came from. 

Modesty is important for both sexes, but the responses are not identical. In other words, apparently immodesty is more of a challenge, or the near occasion of sin, for men than for women. 

[Peace]

21 hours ago, Nunsuch said:

I'm far more concerned with the steroids and other problematic "supplements" that body builders feel compelled to take. They are dangerous (and, in many cases, illegal).

Yeah this is a valid issue with those competitions. There are true natural bodybuilders though, which of course never get as big as most of the freaks you see on stage.

12 hours ago, Nunsuch said:

Also, frankly, as a woman, I find men with overly developed musculature to be really UNattractive, and so I'm unlikely either to watch or to be "tempted" by such individuals. 

Its not even a look that most men would aspire to either, honestly. The legs on those dudes are way too big. Almost freakish.

But trying to attain that "David" physique? I'm pretty sure most people all around agree that its beautiful.

12 hours ago, PadrePio said:

I guess you are a woman , when you say you are more concerned with steroids, you find it less problematic  compared to  seeing men in their underwear?

Perhaps that explains the difference b/w men and women. I guess for most men a women in her 80% revealing bikini is a source for mortal sin

 

10 hours ago, Luigi said:

Psychologists have looked into the differences between men looking at women and women looking at men. It's been a long time since I read it, and I can't quote any sources, although I think they'd be readily available on the Internet, perhaps in academic databases. Anyway, "the assumption that men respond more to visual sexual stimuli is generally empirically supported." I did find that on the Internet very quickly and easily, and there's a lot more where that came from. 

Modesty is important for both sexes, but the responses are not identical. In other words, apparently immodesty is more of a challenge, or the near occasion of sin, for men than for women. 

Heck, I can fantasize about a woman wearing an overcoat over two sweatshirts and her hair in a bun.

You are gonna have to implement the burka for this to work.

No, in fact you are just gonna have to lock women up and never let them out in public.

At least for me, if I make a choice to lust after a particular woman, I don't think it's gonna be because what she is wearing. It's gonna be because I have decided to sin on that particular day. I see women in swimsuits all the time without a sinful thought. I see them in jeans and a t-shirt and have the most evilest of intentions I tell you. I think it really has a lot more to do with the person, than with what the woman is wearing, but that's just me.

But I will grant you that as a general principle, you are correct. Certain outfits don't exactly help. A woman can certainly dress or act in particular ways that are more likely to arouse lustful thoughts in a man, but just wearing a swimsuit? I dunno about all that. Exactly where do you draw the line as to what is acceptable and what is not? A bit arbitrary I think. Jeans are in, but a dress is out? A two piece swimsuit is out, a one piece is in?

[Peace]

Two inches of ankle and we are on the way to heaven. Four inches of ankle for purgatory? Six inches of ankle and were off straight to hell?

Edited December 17, 2021 by Peace

[PadrePio]

15 minutes ago, Peace said:

 

But I will grant you that as a general principle, you are correct. Certain outfits don't exactly help. A woman can certainly dress or act in particular ways that are more likely to arouse lustful thoughts in a man, but just wearing a swimsuit? I dunno about all that. Exactly where do you draw the line as to what is acceptable and what is not? A bit arbitrary I think. Jeans are in, but a dress is out? A two piece swimsuit is out, a one piece is in?

I don't think we need to know where exactly the line needs to be drawn.

Can apply general principles there too..

[Peace]

1 minute ago, PadrePio said:

I don't think we need to know where exactly the line needs to be drawn.

OK. Then the swimsuit competition stays.

[PadrePio]

4 minutes ago, Peace said:

OK. Then the swimsuit competition stays.

I guess the  demons of sexual immorality (impurity) Baal and Beelzebub will be throwing a party then

Edited December 17, 2021 by PadrePio