Vatican officially OKs Catholic blessings for gay couples

[KnightofChrist]

Source:

 

Points 3 and 4 are clearly understood, not using mental gymnastics to make FS fit.

[KnightofChrist]

Wow, please pray for the Church in predominantly Islamic nations. I had not thought of the dangers Catholics there will face because of FS.

 

 

[Luigi]

Here's Father Gregory Pine, OP, of Pints with Aquinas, analyzing Fiducia Supplicans. It's almost half an hour. 

 

[Norseman82]

On 12/21/2023 at 2:40 PM, Luigi said:

 

1. The average lay person can't understand Vatican documents prima facie.

 

You hit the nail right on the head.  Although the intended audience may be clergy, what about the "Joey Bagadonuts" in the pews who will have to field comments and questions from both sides - the aggressive anti-Catholic proselytizers as well as those who think the Church is changing the teaching?  Also, what about people who have family members in same-sex "situations" - I have a cousin's daughter in such a "situation" and I'd be surprised if this isn't a topic of conversation at the annual Christmas ZOOM call later today.  I've read through it as well (through all the "filler" and "theobabble") and took notes in the hopes I can show paragraphs that actually reaffirm the Church's teaching.

 

On 12/21/2023 at 2:40 PM, Luigi said:

Next, I'm going to read the federal tax code (or some Supreme Court opinions, or the engineering standards for earthquake-proofing existing buildings) - and I'll come away from that with a just-as-muddy understanding, even though I can define all the words on the page. Which is why I say... 

 

I was joking with the priest after Mass Saturday that if he wanted to be mean when assigning a penance, he should assign the document to read (even worse would be a USCCB document).

[KnightofChrist]

 

[KnightofChrist]

 

A part of the speech from above:

Bishop Mtumbuka, Malawi:   “The document asks us to bless two people of the same sex as individuals,  but not as a couple.  So these two people of the same sex,  who the previous night slept together, as a couple,  and present themselves to us,  as a couple, are blessed as individuals,  but they leave our presence  as a couple,  they go to their home as a couple, they sleep in the same bed as a couple, but the document says they’re not blessed  as a couple,  although they appear to have been blessed  as a couple. How could this not be changing the authentic teaching of the Church?”

 

Is this going to lead to another great schism? Was Pope Francis right when he said "I Might Go Down in History for Having Split the Catholic Church."

It certainly appears to be a possibility. Sadly.

Edited December 26, 2023 by KnightofChrist

[Luigi]

1 hour ago, KnightofChrist said:

Is this going to lead to another great schism? Was Pope Francis right when he said "I Might Go Down in History for Having Split the Catholic Church."

It certainly appears to be a possibility. Sadly.

I doubt that it will split the Church. This declaration is (at or near) the lowest level of document that the Vatican can issue. It is from one dicastery (although an important one). It has not been debated by cardinals, voted on, approved, or whatever all else the Church could do to add weight to this document - encyclical, dogma, whatever. 

I can even imagine it as a sort of trial balloon - a short, vague, lightweight declaration, released to test the waters of reaction. This sort of document can be more easily withdrawn (or clarified) than, for instance, an encyclical. Theologians and pastors throughout the worldwide Church will write responses using the proper terminology, referring to other documents, bringing to light considerations the the DDF didn't mention in the original, etc. 

It's hard to know what the effects will by the time the dust dies down. 

[KnightofChrist]

2 hours ago, Luigi said:

I doubt that it will split the Church. This declaration is (at or near) the lowest level of document that the Vatican can issue. It is from one dicastery (although an important one). It has not been debated by cardinals, voted on, approved, or whatever all else the Church could do to add weight to this document - encyclical, dogma, whatever. 

I can even imagine it as a sort of trial balloon - a short, vague, lightweight declaration, released to test the waters of reaction. This sort of document can be more easily withdrawn (or clarified) than, for instance, an encyclical. Theologians and pastors throughout the worldwide Church will write responses using the proper terminology, referring to other documents, bringing to light considerations the the DDF didn't mention in the original, etc. 

It's hard to know what the effects will by the time the dust dies down. 

I would hope not, but I'm not sure. I've never seen so many bishops openly reject a document like this from the Vatican. Calling an action by the Vatican heresy, blasphemous, and or deceitful. Perhaps I missed it or forgot? Possibly.

Francis can make things worse or make it better. But based on his history, he's not one to walk things back, especially when he meets resistance. If anything he may just push harder causing further division. I fear that latter is more likely.

On trial balloons there have been a few. From the infamous "who am I to judge" to Francis saying he could support of some civil unions laws. No one should have been surprised IMHO.

[KnightofChrist]

This deeply saddens me to read. I still fear Schism, now there is less hope healing previous schisms.

ROC rep: After RCC blesses gays, reunification with Orthodoxy is impossible

Metropolitan Hilarion said that after the Vatican Declaration on the blessing of LGBT couples, it is no longer possible to talk about the reunion of Catholics and Orthodox.

Metropolitan Hilarion of Budapest, the former head of the DECR-MP, said in an interview with Rod Dreher, an American writer and editor-at-large at “The American Conservative”, that the Vatican's document allowing the blessing of same-sex couples makes it impossible to talk about a possible reunion between Catholics and Orthodox Christians. The interview was published on the YouTube channel Jesus Portal.

The metropolitan said he was shocked by the decision because "we have always looked at the RCC as a beacon of traditional Christianity".

Asked by a journalist whether the Vatican document was the end of talks between Catholics and Orthodox about the possibility of reuniting the Church after the Great Schism of 1054, the hierarch answered in the affirmative.

"If we are realistic, we can no longer hope for future unity between Orthodox and Catholics. Such steps, of course, do not make us closer but will create new lines of separation," the Metropolitan said.

As reported, the Vatican allowed the RCC priests to bless homosexual couples.

 

Source: https://spzh.news/en/news/77558-roc-rep-after-rcc-blesses-gays-reunification-with-orthodoxy-is-impossible

[fides' Jack]

For anyone who needed a sign from Heaven on this matter:

https://popehead.substack.com/p/andrea-cionci-buenos-aires-lightning

Lightning struck the statue of St. Peter at a church in Argentina, where Pope Francis was Archbishop, and destroyed the halo of the statue, and the hand that was holding the key, but left the rest of the statue (mainly) undamaged.  This happened the day before the document was released, on Pope Francis' birthday.

20 hours ago, KnightofChrist said:

This deeply saddens me to read. I still fear Schism, now there is less hope healing previous schisms.

ROC rep: After RCC blesses gays, reunification with Orthodoxy is impossible

It will happen.  The Church will once again become whole.  Divisions will be healed, and errors will be corrected.  I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever about this.  A glorious era for the Church is on the way - likely within our lifetimes, though I think many who are alive now won't live to see it.  The more things like this come up, and the more the Bride of Christ must suffer, the faster we will accelerate toward that end.  

Edited December 28, 2023 by fides' Jack
Added image and clarification

[Credo in Deum]

Vatican officially OKs Catholic blessings for gay couples

 

[fides' Jack]

Like ^

[Norseman82]

On 12/26/2023 at 12:20 PM, KnightofChrist said:

 

A part of the speech from above:

Bishop Mtumbuka, Malawi:   “The document asks us to bless two people of the same sex as individuals,  but not as a couple.  So these two people of the same sex,  who the previous night slept together, as a couple,  and present themselves to us,  as a couple, are blessed as individuals,  but they leave our presence  as a couple,  they go to their home as a couple, they sleep in the same bed as a couple, but the document says they’re not blessed  as a couple,  although they appear to have been blessed  as a couple. How could this not be changing the authentic teaching of the Church?”

 

Is this going to lead to another great schism? Was Pope Francis right when he said "I Might Go Down in History for Having Split the Catholic Church."

It certainly appears to be a possibility. Sadly.

If you cannot access the link in the twitter post supplied by Knight of Christ, here is a YouTube video containing the bishop's homily (relevant part starts at 7:40):  

 

Edited January 14, 2024 by Norseman82

[Didacus]

May the Holy Spirit walk with our Pope, wherever he may walk.

[KnightofChrist]

 

Sad, but not surprising. Sideways blessing sodomic unions has its negativities. 

 

Coptic Orthodox Church Confirms Ecumenical Dialogue Suspended Due to Rome’s ‘Change of Position’ on Homosexuality

https://www.ncregister.com/blog/coptic-orthodox-suspend-theological-dialogue-change-of-position