A Critique Of Non-calvinist Soteriologies

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='Broccolifish' date='Jul 27 2004, 03:01 PM'] I should have made that statement more clear. The poster was defending something along the lines of prevenient grace; by saying that God "predestines" all people for heaven, that all people have the same ability to come to faith, and that God gives grace to [i]everyone[/i] to avoid evil, he or she is essentially stating the position of Pelagianism. Pelagius taught that we all are given the ability to be good or evil people, and that Adam's fall is offset [i]for all people[/i] by Christ's work. This would be "the grace to avoid sin" given to every person.

On the contrary, the Scripture you cite is addressed to believers. [/quote]
Pelagius taught that we could avoid sin [i]without any grace at all[/i], though it would be almost impossible to do so, did he not?

[Broccolifish]

It's a distinction without a difference, since both Pelagianism and the form of semi-pelagianism that our friend posited makes humanity capable of doing the same things. That's why I called it "Pelagianism in a dress."

[Theoketos]

[quote]On the contrary, the Scripture you cite is addressed to believers.[/quote]

I thought that I had read that Paul writes to the Corinthians becuase they had fallen away from the Church. He must remind them what love is because they are not practicing it. He must defend his authority as an Apostle.


[quote]by saying that God "predestines" all people for heaven, that all people have the same ability to come to faith, and that God gives grace to everyone to avoid evil, he or she is essentially stating the position of Pelagianism[/quote]

How would you reconcile this with 1 John 2:2 [quote]And he(Jesus) is the expiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.[/quote]
I really do not mean to be peleagian, in fact I believe that it is only with the Grace of God that we are able to breath, how much more do we need to come to faith?

It would also seem to me that not every one is as disposed to choose God, because habit to vice.

[Theoketos]

Though I would say that also not every one gets the same amount of grace, those that need more would get more.

Also while listening to Christopher West I remembered an anology that would fit well here.

Adam and Eve before the fall were like cars with normally inflated tires. After the fall Man is like a car with flat tires, but Jesus calls us to be fixed again, to have full tires, and though we can never go back to that orgininal state, Jesus calls us to go beyond Adam and Eve to fullfil our purpose. This purpose is to be [i]Very[/i] Good (Gen 1:31). So Jesus would call us in this analogy not only to have full tires but to grow wings.

God made and makes all humans to be very good, and thus God authers every one in that manner. If are made in the image of God, then we are made very good (thought we are still tainted by orginal sin). And why would God condem what is good? Although God is free to do what ever He wants, I do not think that He would do anything to frustrate His Purposes. [i]That I do not think that he would send someone to Hell with out giving them a chance to choose Him.[/i] I would think that a very good reason that He would let humans go to hell that some choose to deny this gift. The gift that I mention is the desire, which he wrote on our hearts, to be in union with God.

Edited July 28, 2004 by Theoketos

[Broccolifish]

[quote]I thought that I had read that Paul writes to the Corinthians becuase they had fallen away from the Church. He must remind them what love is because they are not practicing it. He must defend his authority as an Apostle.[/quote]

[color=blue]2Co 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, To the church of God which is at Corinth with all the saints who are throughout Achaia: [/color]

It's obviously presented as a letter to [i]believers[/i], to the [i]church[/i] in Corinth, and not to reprobates or nonbelievers.

[quote]How would you reconcile this with 1 John 2:2 [/quote]
If you're going to take this narrow definition of "the whole world", then you'll have to reconcile it yourself with John 3:16 and 3:17, which clearly does not make the same usage:

[color=red]Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. [/color]

If "the world" in 1 John 2:2 refers to [i]every single person on earth[/i], then John 3:16 and John 3:17 must mean that no one is condemned. On the contrary, "propitiation not only for us, but for the whole world" refers to the fact that salvation is not only for Jews, but for Gentiles as well. This is the concept which is demonstrated by words such as "all men", "the whole world", et cetera. The reality is that this verse and others like it prove [i]too much[/i] for the Catholic and non-calvinist, because if the words are restricted to mean every person on earth, then similar passages which refer to salvation coming [i]to the whole world[/i] and [i]to all men[/i] necessitate universalism. Of course, this is contradictory to the rest of the Scriptures, and the Calvinist viewpoint is not in conflict with the Scriptures at all. You see, if Christ were the propitiation for the sins of [i]every individual in the world[/i], then anyone who went to Hell would be condemned for sins which are already paid for. This, of course, would be an affront to God's justice.

[quote]I really do not mean to be peleagian, in fact I believe that it is only with the Grace of God that we are able to breath, how much more do we need to come to faith?[/quote]
Obviously a lot, since men and women lived and died in sin, but Christ had to come to save the Elect.

[quote]It would also seem to me that not every one is as disposed to choose God, because habit to vice.[/quote]
So, what separates the one who chooses from the one who rejects?

Edited July 29, 2004 by Broccolifish

[Broccolifish]

[quote name='Broccolifish' date='Jul 27 2004, 02:48 PM']
[/quote]
I said this before, and now it won't let me edit it, but I wanted to correct an error:

[quote]Second, the words "inherently good in the natural sphere" amount to saying nothing at all, when we consider that every act, from tying one's shoes to killing one's enemy, is solely "natural".  Every act which takes place in the heart of man or the natural world has an ethical aspect to it.  [/quote]
I meant to say that [b]no[/b] act is solely "natural". All have an ethical aspect, and a spiritual aspect, for the reasons I gave.

[Theoketos]

[quote]So, what separates the one who chooses from the one who rejects? [/quote]

Free will.

No one is condemned unless they do something that condemns them.

[Broccolifish]

[quote name='Theoketos' date='Jul 29 2004, 01:16 PM']
Free will.

No one is condemned unless they do something that condemns them. [/quote]
But all people are sinners. Every single person is worthy of condemnation. Where is free will, when all men stand condemned by their own sinfulness?

You didn't really answer the question, though. I'm asking what, in the non-calvinist sense, causes a person to [i]choose[/i] one or the other? To say "free will" is to miss the point. [i]Why[/i] does the "free" person choose grace or Hell?

[Theoketos]

Peace and Blessings B-Fish

[quote]Augustine pointed out that the grace preceding faith must be an interior enlightenment and strengthening, and that the preaching of the Word of God could not, unassisted, accomplish this; consequently the implanting of grace in the soul by God is necessary as a preliminary condition for the production of real faith, since otherwise the customary prayer of the Church for the grace of conversion for unbelievers would be superfluous. Augustine also introduces his view of an absolute predestination of the elect, without however especially emphasizing it, by remarking: "Cum tam multi salvi non fiant, non quia ipsi, sed quia Deus non vult" (Since so many are not saved, not because they themselves do not will it, but because God does not will it). Vitalis seems to have acquiesced and to have disclaimed the "error of Pelagius". [/quote]

More later...at work now.

[Theoketos]

[quote]If you're going to take this narrow definition of "the whole world", then you'll have to reconcile it yourself with John 3:16 and 3:17, which clearly does not make the same usage:[/quote]

I look at it and see the same usage. The whole world is supposed to be saved, but only those that believe are saved. At least we have an agreement on those that truly believe are saved, should that not commit a mortal sin.

[Theoketos]

Thanks for your conviction!

[quote]2Co 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, To the church of God which is at Corinth with all the saints who are throughout Achaia:

It's obviously presented as a letter to believers, to the church in Corinth, and not to reprobates or nonbelievers.[/quote]

Are there not 'believers' in your denomination that do and say stupid things that then need correction? I believe the next thing he talks about is godlessness and wickedness.

And in Romans he berieves them about factions.

[quote]You see, if Christ were the propitiation for the sins of every individual in the world, then anyone who went to Hell would be condemned for sins which are already paid for. This, of course, would be an affront to God's justice.[/quote]

How do you know what is affornt to God's Justice?I do like that question:wink:

I think that through faith sins are washed away. Yes Jesus paid for all our sins, every sin, even those which people commit and never reconcile. I see that Jesus gave us the potential to live, in faith. Thus there is actual grace, which is unmerited, but this grace still does not take away from man's ability to Sin. For us to be able to love we must be able to sin.

Also from Ephesians 4:

[quote]6 one God and Father of [b]all[/b], who is above [b]all[/b] and through [b]all[/b] and in [b]all[/b]. 7 But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ's gift. 8 Therefore it is said, "When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men."
[/quote]

[b]All[/b] seems pretty clear to me. Saint Paul even goes on to say that each person gets the Grace that they need.

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='Theoketos' date='Jul 29 2004, 11:15 PM']
[b]All[/b] seems pretty clear to me. Saint Paul even goes on to say that each person gets the Grace that they need. [/quote]
No, this Scripture is addressed to believers. He said.

[quote]But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ's gift.[/quote] Grace was given to each of those who have believed, according to Christ's will in giving it. How is does this teach against the Calvinist view?

[ICTHUS]

Im still waiting...

[Theoketos]

Sorry to keep you all waiting, yes I can go up too a month with using the internet, and seeing how I spent all day moving to an expensive apartment, I doubt that I will be able to keep up. But God has graced me with awesome parents who allow me to come over and use their computer! Praise God!

Any way, I spent all day moving I do not have all my stuff together, but if the Word of God is only addressed to believers, why did Jesus send His Apostles out to baptize all the nations? Also it seems to me that if the Bible is not addressing those who have not heard, or heard God and ignored it (e.g. the Corinthians): then it would be the same as saying the doctors only cure the healthy. Yet doctors care for the sick, and Jesus addresses sinners in His Word, He leaves the 99 to find the one.

And the part about the measure of Grace speaks to sufficient grace, which is not the same as efficacious grace.

I am sorry that I did not link to the Bible References that paraphrased, I am sure that you know them, because you are awesome like that. Seriously.

[Broccolifish]

[quote name='I']If you're going to take this narrow definition of "the whole world", then you'll have to reconcile it yourself with John 3:16 and 3:17, which clearly does not make the same usage:[/quote]
[quote name='Theoketos']I look at it and see the same usage. The whole world is supposed to be saved, but only those that believe are saved. At least we have an agreement on those that truly believe are saved, should that not commit a mortal sin. [/quote]
No, we do not agree. Those who are Elect [i]will[/i] be saved, and none of them will be condemned. Those who truly believe are saved, and they are [i]preserved[/i] by God’s grace unto Eternal Life. No one can once gain salvation and then lose it.

[color=blue] John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

Psalms 34:7
7 The angel of the Lord encamps around those who fear Him, and [b]rescues[/b] them.

Isaiah 54:10
10 "For the mountains may be removed and the hills may shake, but My lovingkindness will not be removed from you, and My covenant of peace will not be shaken," says the LORD who has compassion on you.

Jeremiah 32:40
40 "I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and [b]I will put the fear of Me in their hearts so that they will not turn away from Me.[/b]

Matthew 18:12-14
12 "What do you think? If any man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine, on the mountains and go and search for the one that is straying?
13 "If it turns out that he finds it, truly I say to you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine, which have not gone astray.
14 "So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones perish."

John 4:14
14 but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life."[/color]

Now, to the more important question: How can you see the same usage in these passages, if it refers to every individual?

[color=blue] 1Jo 2:2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

Joh 3:17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. [/color]

If “The World” here refers to every individual, then one of these statements [b]must[/b] be true:

1. Christ’s death pays the penalty of EVERY sin (in which case, nonbelievers are punished in Hell for sins that are already paid for)
2. NONE are condemned to Hell
3. Christ failed His mission.

This can be shown with the following argument:
1. If Christ [i]propitiated[/i] for every individual, and some are still condemned, then their sins are punished twice: First, Christ pays the penalty and second, the sinner pays the penalty. This is double jeopardy, and it’s anti-biblical.
2. If the words “The World” refer to every individual, then we can substitute the words “Every Individual” for “The World”. Thus, John 3:17 becomes, “For God did not send the Son to every individual to condemn every individual, but that [b]EVERY INDIVIDUAL[/b] might be saved through Him.” An easy question, then, is whether Christ succeeded in this mission. If so, then [b]no one[/b] goes to Hell. Of course, this is anti-biblical.
3. If, on the other hand, some do go to Hell even though Christ’s mission was to save EVERY INDIVIDUAL, then He failed in His mission.

[quote name='I']2Co 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, To the church of God which is at Corinth with all the saints who are throughout Achaia:

It's obviously presented as a letter to believers, to the church in Corinth, and not to reprobates or nonbelievers.[/quote]
[quote name='Theoketos']Are there not 'believers' in your denomination that do and say stupid things that then need correction? I believe the next thing he talks about is godlessness and wickedness.[/quote]
This is the whole point, Theoketos!! Paul is speaking [b][i]to Christians[/i][/b], to The Church in Corinth, rather than to the nonbelievers in Corinth. Thus, when Paul says, “There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it,” we must ask who Paul is addressing when he says [i]YE[/i] may be able to bear it. He is addressing the Church in Corinth, believers who are imperfect, but believers nonetheless. He is [i]not[/i] addressing pagans, telling them that [i]they[/i] can avoid sin. Augustine taught that, prior to regeneration, sinners are in a state called [i]non posse non peccare[/i], that is, that it is impossible for them not to sin. Only believers have the ability to please God, because [i]all that does not proceed from faith is sin!![/i] I showed earlier that it is the case that no one who does not believe can do [i]anything[/i] that is not sinful.

[quote name='Theoketos']And in Romans he berieves them about factions.[/quote]
Yes. There is still sinfulness within the Church. And there are wolves in sheep’s clothing. But Paul is addressing [i]believers[/i], not nonbelievers.

[quote name='I']You see, if Christ were the propitiation for the sins of every individual in the world, then anyone who went to Hell would be condemned for sins which are already paid for. This, of course, would be an affront to God's justice.[/quote]
[quote name='Theoketos']How do you know what is affornt to God's Justice?I do like that question:wink:[/quote]
[color=blue] Pro 17:15 He who justifies the wicked and he who condemns the righteous, Both of them alike are an abomination to the LORD. [/color]

If Christ has [b][i]paid the penalty[/i][/b], that is, if He is the [i]propitiation[/i] for believers and nonbelievers alike, then the believers and nonbelievers are [i]both[/i] made righteous by His work. Thus, the condemnation of nonbelievers would be [i]condemnation of the righteous[/i]. Therefore, since this is an abomination, it is fair to say that it is an affront to God’s justice.

[quote name='Theoketos']I think that through faith sins are washed away. Yes Jesus paid for all our sins, every sin, even those which people commit and never reconcile. [/quote]
Even for the unbeliever?

[quote name='Theoketos']I see that Jesus gave us the potential to live, in faith. Thus there is actual grace, which is unmerited, but this grace still does not take away from man's ability to Sin. [/quote]
To whom did He give that potential?

[quote name='Theoketos']For us to be able to love we must be able to sin. [/quote]
Prove this to me, from the Scriptures. In addition, show to me how we can love God then, in Heaven, where we will not be able to sin.

[quote name='Theoketos']Also from Ephesians 4:

6 one God and Father of all, who is above all and through all and in all. 7 But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ's gift. 8 Therefore it is said, "When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men."

All seems pretty clear to me. Saint Paul even goes on to say that each person gets the Grace that they need. [/quote]
Each [b][i]of us[/i][/b]. Who is “us”? Paul is talking to the [b][i]Church[/i][/b] in Ephesus, not to the nonbelievers. In addition, you’re pretending that the word “all” can only have one application or meaning. This is not the case, however. For example, in Ephesians 3:9, we read:

[color=blue] Eph 3:9 and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things; [/color]

Here, we don’t have any problem with saying that there is nothing which has been made that God didn’t make. However, if we apply this standard to every occurrence of the word “all”, we run into serious problems.

[color=red] Joh 12:32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

Joh 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. [/color]

Again, this ends in universalism. 1 Timothy shows the proper understanding of “all men”, which is in accordance with the Calvinist position and no other:

[color=blue] 1Ti 2:1 First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men,
1Ti 2:2 for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity.
1Ti 2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1Ti 2:6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time. [/color]

Verse 2 shows the extent of “all”. Paul is not commanding that every believer must supplicate for every individual on the face of the earth! He is saying that they must pray for all types of men, kings and those in authority even. Again, if verse 4 requires that God truly desire the salvation of every individual, then God is a terribly ineffective Creator and failed in His achievement.

[Justified Saint]

You are confusing propitiation with [i]expiation[/i]. To propitiate means to appease, to regain favor and mercy. The reformers summarily rejected the notion of propitiation and advanced the doctrine of penal substitution - that being that Christ paid the strict, legal penalty of sin. This can only be done by reducing Christ to sin itself which Luther had no problem doing. Therefore, it becomes illogical and unbiblical to understand the atonement other than limited, but that is a problem the reformers created.

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='Justified Saint' date='Aug 3 2004, 08:25 PM'] You are confusing propitiation with [i]expiation[/i]. To propitiate means to appease, to regain favor and mercy. The reformers summarily rejected the notion of propitiation and advanced the doctrine of penal substitution - that being that Christ paid the strict, legal penalty of sin. This can only be done by reducing Christ to sin itself which Luther had no problem doing. Therefore, it becomes illogical and unbiblical to understand the atonement other than limited, but that is a problem the reformers created. [/quote]
I'd like to elaborate on this point a little, and if possible, to articulate a Reformed vs. Catholic position on the nature of the Atonement, since it seems to be crucial to the debate.

[Justified Saint]

Please, do elaborate.

[Broccolifish]

[quote]You are confusing propitiation with [i]expiation[/i].  To propitiate means to appease, to regain favor and mercy.  The reformers summarily rejected the notion of propitiation and advanced the doctrine of penal substitution - that being that Christ paid the strict, legal penalty of sin.  This can only be done by reducing Christ to sin itself which Luther had no problem doing.  Therefore, it becomes illogical and unbiblical to understand the atonement other than limited, but that is a problem the reformers created.[/quote]

[color=blue]2Co 5:21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. [/color]

Expiation and propitiation are synonymns, as is seen in the previous text:

[color=blue]1Jo 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
1Jo 2:2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world. [/color]

The word "propitiation" is [font="symbol"]ilasmoV[/font], which refers to atonement, propitiation, and expiation. You've created a false distinction between the two words. Propitiation is from the Latin prefix [i]Pro-[/i] and the root [i]patio[/i], and literally means, "suffer." Thus, the word "propitiation" means "to suffer for". Expiation refers to the removal of sins. To say that Jesus suffered for all people, but did not actually accomplish anything for the nonbeliever is to say that His suffering, as regards the nonbelievers, was [b]meaningless[/b]. Again, we look at John 3, and conclude that if Christ died to save the world, and "the world" is every individual on earth, then He [i]failed[/i] in His mission.

The important thing to remember in all of this is that the Scriptures do not actually make the same distinction. "Propitiation" is a Latin word whose etymology is not sustained by the Greek. Romans 3:25 shows that the word translated "propitiaton" refers not just to some sort of nebulous suffering, but to actual [i]atonement[/i]; that is, the sins of those for whom Christ died are [i]paid[/i].

[Theoketos]

Christ did not fail His mission!

People do got Hell!

He died so that the unbelieving can believe!

He died for us!