Sola Scriptura

[Antonius]

To all my Christian-but-not-Roman-Catholic friends, I ask a question, as to better understand your beliefs.

If the Bible alone is all you need, then how come it doesn't say so in it? Wouldn't there be a statement saying something like, "Herein are The Holy Scriptures Divinely Inspired by God Himself and let no being declare his authority greater than the Words Most Holy written in this book, lest he burn in Hell for all eternity." The Koran has a statement like that in it, that's why Muslims believe that it's the final authority. I'm just curious. It seems to me that the Bible doesn't declare itself to be the sole authority, rather it is men that have declared it such.

One more thing, if Martin Luther thought Sola Scriptura was the way to go, how come he took out a few books like Maccabees? If the Bible is "Sola" then why would any man take out books?

And isn't it John himself that wrote in his Gospel 22:24-25, [color=blue]"This is the disciple who bears witness concerning these things, and who has written these things, and we know that his witness is true. There are however, many other things that Jesus did; but if every one of these should be written, not even the world itself, I think, could hold the books that would have to be written. Amen." [/color]and also in Revelation 22:18-21 John wrote that, [color=blue]"I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book. If anyone shall add to them, God will add unto him the plagues that are written in this book. And if anyone shall take away from the words of the book of his prophecy, God will take away his portion from the tree of life, and from the holy city, and from the things that are written in this book. He who testifies to these things says, 'It is true, I come quickly!' Amen! Come Lord Jesus! The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with all. Amen."[/color]

Thus, I would think that the Bible would give better evidence of it's "Sola" status if it is indeed "Sola". But, please, my Protestant friends, tell me how I am wrong, since I know this is conflicting with your beliefs. I must have missed something...

My Catholic brothers and sisters, indeed you could help me shed light on this also?

[dairygirl4u2c]

Depends on who you ask. But I'd say sola scriptura just means that obviously nothing can contradict it and it is sufficient for belief, nothing else is needed.

Actually I'm a little bit more conservative/liberal (whatever word you want to use) than that but that's the basic belief.

Edited July 16, 2004 by dairygirl4u2c

[Antonius]

And belief is sufficient for salvation? Is this not also what you believe?

[dairygirl4u2c]

Well it depends on what you mean by salvation. And it depends on what you mean by belief. But basically yes you're right. I'm just being cautious. This is all in the bible. Why do you ask?

Edited July 16, 2004 by dairygirl4u2c

[Antonius]

I ask because I wish to know. I am curious.

Yes, let's talk about what you mean by belief and believing. When I said salvation in the last post, I was talking about going to Heaven after you die.

Because I was not taught Sola Scriptura or Sola Fide, I wish to talk about them with you.

Edited July 16, 2004 by Antonius

[dairygirl4u2c]

First, you can belief sola scriputra and not sola fide if you want.

depends on what you mean by sola fide.

I believe you must have works to go to heaven. I do not believe God will judge you as hell bound and leave you wishing you could do it all over again because of a legality. this is somewhat a "fundamentalist" belief. He will let you cast your own sentence by not having works but would always leave the gates of heaven open. this is my belief.

If when Catholics say "God's judgement" they mean "God's allowance" then I don't disagree with Catholics.

If when others say sola fide they mean what I said God would not do then I believe in sola fide.Remember sola fide people belief works are necessary as a biproduct of their legal salvation.

Edited July 16, 2004 by dairygirl4u2c

[Antonius]

I'm sorry, I don't understand your beliefs, as you have stated them. What legality are you referring to?

I always thought that Sola Fide said that all you had to do was believe in God and the you get to go to Heaven.

What do you mean by "casting your own sentence?"

[Aloysius]

so God's not gonna say "Depart from me, you cursed, into [b]everlasting [/b]fire, which was prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty and you gave me not to drink. I was a stranger and you took me not in: naked and you covered me not: sick and in prison and you did not visit me."
as He says in
[i]The Holy Gospel According to Saint Matthew Chapter 25 verses 41-43[/i]

?????????????????

Edited July 16, 2004 by Aloysius

[StColette]

Al, you took the words right out of my mouth

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote]so God's not gonna say [/quote]

Nope. That's to be interpreted figuratively.

[quote]What do you mean by "casting your own sentence?" [/quote]

Not loving your neighbor as yourself has its own inherent punishments.


I'm pretty conservative/liberal in my beliefs. I don't think I'm the one you two should be talking to. Especially if you want a typical catholic vs. fundamentalist protestant dialouge.

[Antonius]

Hey thanks, Aloyisius, I think we all agree that Sola Fide is incorrect, even dairygirl. I'm just trying to understand her beliefs in general, but specifically, as indicated by the topic title, Sola Scriptura.

Well, anyone that's into Sola Scriptura is fine to talk to.

Dairygirl, what do you mean by "that's meant to be interpreted figuratively?" What are your views on the interpretation of the Bible?

Edited July 16, 2004 by Antonius

[Aloysius]

why do you keep saying that?! can someone get me a translator? "i'm pretty conservative/liberal" :wacko:

The only things that are to be interpretted figuratively are those things which were meant to be figurative. Like, we don't actually believe He's going to be saying that to GOATS. But God will send us oppurtunities to do good for Him, and if we refuse to do that good we will not truly be of God, the father of one who refuses to do good for others though he knows he should is not God but rather the devil, for he is like the hypocrites that Jesus spoke to in [i]The Holy Gospel according to Saint John Chapter 8 verse 44[/i].

[Antonius]

Amen, once again, brother. I'm trying to see where dairygirl believes interpretation should come, since she doesn't believe in the authority of the Church, specifically the Magisterium.

And yes, dairygirl, maybe you could explain what conservative/liberal means? It's almost like saying, "black/white". Are you saying that your views are only polar, and that they aren't moderate at all? That you only believe in the extremes, one way or the other?

[RandomProddy]

[quote name='Antonius' date='Jul 16 2004, 07:23 PM'] And belief is sufficient for salvation? [/quote]
Not even slightly.

[Apotheoun]

The [i]sola scriptura[/i] doctrine is self-contradictory, because Scripture itself does not enumerate the books to be included in the Bible, and thus it relies on a source outside of itself, i.e., Tradition and the Church's Magisterium, in order to determine the content and limits of the canon. This fact in and of itself proves the [i]sola scriptura[/i] doctrine to be false.

[Christina]

[quote name='Me']Almost all Protestants follow the doctrine of Sola Scriptura. This donctrine claims that the Bible alone is the authority in matters of faith. Fundamentalists will begin by saying, "Let's agree that the Bible is the sole rule of faith." A Catholic must answer with a firm, "NO!" They are really asking you to reject Sacred Tradition and the authority of the Church.

We must show them that Christ left a Church to teach, govern, and sanctify in His name until the end of time. To reject that authority is to reject Christ and His Gospel. We Catholics accept the Bible as an authority in matters of faith because it is God's inpired Word. However, we cannot accept it as the only rule of faith for the following reasons.

It goes against the [color=red]BIBLE[/color]. Scripture tells us that Christ left a Church with divine authority to govern in His name (Mt 16:13-20, 18:18; Lk 10:16). Christ promised that this Church would last until the end of time (Mt 16:18, 28:19-20; Jn 14:16). The Bible also tells us that Sacred Tradition is to be followed alongside Sacred Scripture (2Thess 2:15, 3:6).

The doctrine of sola scrptura is not found in Scripture. In fact, the Bible tells us that we need more than just the Bible alone. The Bible confirms that not everything Jesus said and did is recorded in Scripture (Jn 21:25) and that we must also hold fast to oral tradition, the preached Word of God (1Cor 11:2; 1Pet 1:25).

In 2 Pet 3:15-16, we are warned that Sacred Scripture can be very difficult to interpret, which strongly implies the need for an authoritative interpreter. Finally, 1 Tim 3:15 reassures us that the Church is "the pillar and foundation of truth."

It goes against [color=red]HISTORY[/color]. The history of the Bible attests that it was the Church excercising its Apostolic authority that determined what is and is not Scripture. We need the authority of the Church to tell us what belongs in the Bible (1Tim 3:15).

It goes against [color=red]COMMON SENSE[/color]. Any written document meant to play a crucial role in determining how people live must have a living, continuing authority to guard, guarantee, and officially interpret it. Otherwise, chaos reigns as everyone interprets the document according to his personal whim.

For example, the Founding Fathers of this country put together a magnificent document to be authoritative in determining how this country would be governed: the US Constitution. They also established a living, continuing authority to guard, gaurantee and officially interpret the Constitution: the Supreme Court.

The Founding Fathers knew that without a living authority the Constitution would lead to endless divisions as every one acted as his own interpreter. God certainly has more wisdom than the founders of this country. He would never have left a written document to be the only rule of faith without a living authority to guard and officially interpret it.[/quote]

[Antonius]

Wow, Christina. Thanks. You totally "beasted" it. Well done! I think taht little more can be said of this. I only wonder how some people can believe in this, because they must have not thought it out completely. Thank you, Christina! (and also Apotheoun!) Ciao. God bless you all.

dairygirl (or any other protestant for that matter) i'm still curious to hear what you have to say, if anything at all. Thanks!

[StColette]

Okay I'm not sure if the following has been covered or not but here goes:

[quote]SOLA SCRIPTURA

Jn 21:25 ... not everything is in the Bible.
2 Thess 2:15; 2 Tim 2:2; 1 Cor 11:2; 1 Thess 2:13 ... Paul speaks of oral tradition. Acts 2:42 ... early Christians followed apostolic tradition.
2 Pet 3:16 ... Bible hard to understand, get distorted.
2 Jn 1:12; 3 Jn 1:13-14 ... more oral tradition.
2 Pet 1:20-21 ... against personal interpretation.
Acts 8:30-31 ... guidance needed to interpret scriptures.
Heb 5:12 ... need to be taught. [/quote]

I found a Catholic Apologist Cheat Sheet online and it breaks down certain topics like Sola Scriptura with Bible verses to support them

[Christina]

[quote name='Antonius' date='Jul 17 2004, 12:16 AM'] Wow, Christina. Thanks. You totally "beasted" it. Well done! I think taht little more can be said of this. I only wonder how some people can believe in this, because they must have not thought it out completely. Thank you, Christina! (and also Apotheoun!) Ciao. God bless you all.

[/quote]
You're welcome....God bless you too my freind.