Purgatory

[Flash]

Hey just thought I would post this topic

When I was in the minor seminary for a time I had a discussion with one of my fellow sems

We argued over whether time existed in purgatory and these were the points.

+Since there is a change in soul time must exist.

+Since we are there for a "limited time", time must exist

+After death our souls would not experience the limitation of time

+time involves change but change does not necessarily involve time

I realize this is not to important but would like some imput from the Phatmass Pham

[IcePrincessKRS]

This topic was discussed recently. You can check out the debate at this link, too.

[Guest JeffCR07]

As Ice said, this has been discussed in great detail in another thread, but I believe (and Western mystical tradition upholds) that time does indeed exist in purgatory (understanding that the Church's official stance on purgatory is that 1.) it exists, and 2.) it is the condition of the soul in which purification occurs) though that time does not exist as we understand it to.

- Your Brother In Christ, Jeff

[megamattman1]

The declaration of the Church is enough to prove time. And there might (probably) be other theoretical proofs for the existence of the existence of time in purgatory, but this is just based on the presuppisitions you posted.

[quote]+time involves change, but change does not necessarily involve time[/quote]
[quote]+Since there is a change in soul, time must exist.[/quote]


You might see where I'm going with this since I posted the quotes like that.

If change does not necessarily involve time, and the soul changes, how can you necessarily conclude that time must exist?

Edited July 20, 2004 by megamattman1

[Aloysius]

i disagree, i believe change does need time. that's why time was created, so we could change. nothing that exists outside of time changes, that's why the souls in hell are always in hell and the souls in heaven are always in heaven.

[Guest JeffCR07]

On a purely theoretical and speculative basis, was, then, Christ simultaneously temporaly present on earth and enternally present in heaven, or did he leave heaven, come to earth, and ascend back to heaven?

Moreover, by that definition, one must argue that Satan and his demons are simultaneously in hell and working on earth, and that Satan was temporally present here on earth to tempt Christ while being eternally present in Hell.


I am not positive what I think about that, I would have to consider it more deeply

- Your Brother In Christ, Jeff

[Guest JeffCR07]

Ok, again, just speculation, but lets chew on this:

If the essential nature of "Time" is neither change, nor motion (as the scientists would have it), but rather destruction/deterioration and creation/healing then the following would be true.

1.) Time exists on Earth (natural cycle of life/death)
2.) Time exists in Purgatory (condition of purification)
3.) Time does not exist in Heaven (creation is completes and all things remain perfect)
4.) Time does not exist in Hell (suffering is seperate from physical deterioration, ie you cannot "die" in Hell, you remain in pain for eternity)

the questionable extrapolations of this idea (that I can see right now):

Time existed on earth at the moment of creation, but was intended to cease existing because all things were endowed with the supernatural grace of [i]integrity[/i] and [i]immortality[/i]

Time would have "existed again" when we lost these gifts in Original Sin, and has since existed.


I dunno if I buy all that, but its the only thing I could come up with off the top of my head as an alternate theory.

Remember, megaman is right, the only thing we NEED to know is what the Church tells us!

- Your Brother In Christ, Jeff

[mmmerf]

[quote name='Flash' date='Jul 20 2004, 01:14 PM']
+After death our souls would not experience the limitation of time [/quote]
I'm not sure I can agree with this point. I see no proof that a soul does not experience time after death. Going by the 'four last things' - 'Death, judgement, heaven and hell' it would seem that judgement does allow for time.

Indeed, I would say purgatory is defined in part by its dependence on time. In heaven and hell change does not occur - time is not a necessary condition. But purgatory change does occur, and the change is not instantaneous. So certainly time is a characteristic of purgatory.

Another way we could look at it is to say that heaven and hell are the only 'places' where time does NOT exist. Since purgatory is neither of these, time must exist there.

This gives rise to another conundrum, though:

1. There is no time in heaven.
2. A game of football takes an hour to play.


Thus,

3. There can be no football in heaven.





Which is, clearly, a contradiction.

[thicke]

OK. I read though everything on here just fine, even Jeff's posts and was "chewing" on it without any real problems. Until.....

[quote name='mmmerf' date='Jul 21 2004, 07:31 AM']1. There is no time in heaven.
2. A game of football takes an hour to play.


Thus,

3. There can be no football in heaven.

 



Which is, clearly, a contradiction. [/quote]


This made my head hurt.

[Pio Nono]

JMJ
7/21 - St. Lawrence of Brindisi

There's one thing I think we're all overlooking............

[i][b]What, exactly, is time???[/b][/i]

I would hold that there is no time in Heaven as we know it on earth, for as I see it, time is the measure of change on a physical substance or body.

For a really cool discussion on time, read Frank J. Sheed's book [i]Theology and Sanity[/i]. I'll briefly discuss it - if you're with me, let's go.

Time, as defined above, is the measure of change on a physical substance or body. We say, though, that God is not in time - He is in eternity. Eternity, therefore, can be seen as changelessness, even on the spiritual level.

But can there be change on the spiritual level? I, following Aquinas, hold that there can be. The soul, separated from the body, is able to come to an ever greater purification before the sight of God, as well as growing in the knowledge of God. These are accidental changes to the soul, but nothing that would substantially alter it. This situation (the measure of accidental change on a spiritual substance), according to Aquinas, is known as [i]aeviternity[/i].

Using this, I would hold that the soul changes in some way in Purgatory, admitting for aeviternity but not time (since time is the measure of change on a physical substance or body).

Am I making any sense at all here?

[mmmerf]

[quote name='Pio Nono' date='Jul 21 2004, 08:35 AM']
[i][b]What, exactly, is time???[/b][/i]

I would hold that there is no time in Heaven as we know it on earth, for as I see it, time is the measure of change on a physical substance or body.
[/quote]
I think your definition of time is too narrow. I would argue that time is the characteristic of a state of being that necessitates that causes precede events, for said being.

[mmmerf]

[quote name='thicke' date='Jul 21 2004, 08:25 AM'] OK. I read though everything on here just fine, even Jeff's posts and was "chewing" on it without any real problems. Until.....


[incompatibility between heaven and football]

This made my head hurt. [/quote]
I tell you, it's keeping me up nights. I've tried to discuss it with my spiritual director, but he's a baseball fan, and as we all know, a baseball game can potentially stretch on for eternity, as long as the score remains tied. You can see the bind I'm in here.

[Flash]

Hey thanks everyone for your imput. I'm a newbie so I was unaware that this topic had already been raised. I believe all of these were good points. Peace

Tuus Frater in Christo

[thicke]

[quote name='mmmerf' date='Jul 21 2004, 09:38 AM'] I tell you, it's keeping me up nights. I've tried to discuss it with my spiritual director, but he's a baseball fan, and as we all know, a baseball game can potentially stretch on for eternity, as long as the score remains tied. You can see the bind I'm in here. [/quote]
Well, it gave me a headache. But being a baseball fan myself it''s not making me loose sleep.

[Guest JeffCR07]

At this point in time, I must side with Pio Nono, who eloquently addressed what I was trying to say by mentioning death & degeneration by condensing this into "physical change."

Think about it like this: The only reason that "hours" exist is, ultimately, because our life is limited and so we break up the "time" that we have here on earth into years, months, weeks, days, hours, minutes, seconds, etc.

However, without death (or, more specifically, change in one's physical integrity) that "time" ceases to exist.

We can also come at the problem from a different angle. We know that:

1.) Upon Christ's Second Coming, we will live with Him in Eternity

2.) Upon Christ's Second Coming, we will get our bodies back, in a glorified form

Based on these two assumption, it must be accepted that a physical body can exist in time (as it does now) AND out of time (as it will in the coming Age).

So what is the difference between the two bodies, aside from time? Well, one is glorified and one is not (one exists in a state of perfect sanctifying Grace and partakes in the Divine Nature of God, is immortal, cannot be harmed, etc, while the other does not).

I would posit that, as I (and Pio) argued before, the nature of Time as we know it is held in this difference: Time is a force which only exists for those beings whose physical reality is temporary and vulnerable. Without death or physical vulnerability, Time as we know it ceases to exist.

- Your Brother In Christ, Jeff