Liberalism

[Chris Zewe]

WOULD YOU PLEASE TELL ME WHICH THOUGHT OF MINE WE ARE DISCUSSING? THANK YOU!

[Don John of Austria]

Well God Conquers actually the early Christians where all communist, so are all the religious orders, however Marxist Communism is a forbidden and evil institution. Marxist Communism is contrary to Church teaching for many reasons, among them are the fact that it explicitly rejects God and the State replaces God, more than that, it is a system which gives no choice in the matter. Still one must make the distinction between Marxism and pure communism 9 which peter the first Pope certianly approved of).

[Chris Zewe]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Jul 23 2004, 02:21 PM'] Well God Conquers actually the early Christians where all communist, so are all the religious orders, however Marxist Communism is a forbidden and evil institution. Marxist Communism is contrary to Church teaching for many reasons, among them are the fact that it explicitly rejects God and the State replaces God, more than that, it is a system which gives no choice in the matter. Still one must make the distinction between Marxism and pure communism 9 which peter the first Pope certianly approved of). [/quote]
Incoherent/10

[Justified Saint]

Wow, the theory really holds true! Thought, reason, and comphrension are slowy trickling away.

I jest of course.

I am speaking of "thought" in a general and more abstract sense.

But specifically I am challenging the belief system in which you hold that says you can think, act, and believe however you like. Therefore, no objective reality exists in this system and consequently reason can not exist.

Once again we arrive at the conclusion that your "thought" is without reason.

Edited July 23, 2004 by Justified Saint

[Chris Zewe]

Um...I believe that people should (and do) do what they want. I just think that they should consider the consequences and then accept them when the time comes.

[littleflower+JMJ]

[quote]You don't want to clean up after me, you said. I'm not used to boards with ToS this strict. I assumed that you were threatening to ban me[/quote]

i only said that cuz i know you are old enough to read and know what they are .


[quote]Um...I believe that people should (and do) do what they want. I just think that they should consider the consequences and then accept them when the time comes. [/quote]

sounds like you wouldn't be able to ensure order and just chaos...


and to get on subjec here, great book don john i have it too.

[Chris Zewe]

You do what you want because you think it will result in you going to heaven. Others choose to do or not do things because they don't want to go to jail. People CHOOSE to have laws, so we have them. You do everything that you do because you want to for one reason or another.

[Justified Saint]

Hey, at least you admit it.

So you aren't really free to think then are you if one should act as they want since then they won't be inclined to act as they don't want?

I do a lot of things I don't want to do. How do you explain that?

[Justified Saint]

No, Jesus wants us to go to heaven.

[Chris Zewe]

But you DO want to do them. Perhaps not very much, but you'd rather do them than have to face the consequences of the alternative(s).

[Justified Saint]

Exactly!

There is this objective reality to the situation. Because there is this underlying principle of morality and reason behind them!

[Don John of Austria]

Well Chris if my response to God counquers about communism was incoherent to you then you have some very serious educational issues. However, since it was addressed to God Counquers and I know He knows the differance between Marxism and Pure Communism, and I know that he understands the basic history of the early Church I am sure[i] he [/i]will not find it incoherent, I am sorry that your education has not given you that basic understanding of Church history or apparantly the differance between Marxism and Pure Communism, but that is irrealivent to my reponse to him.

[God Conquers]

I do not find it incoherent DJ. However, I believe 'communism' as the early christians practiced it and religious orders do is a vast exception. The church holds very dearly to the idea that men as individuals and families should hold private property. The social Encyclicals and especially Leo XIII's Rerum Novarum flatly reject the idea of mass common property, be it communist or capitalist.

It is not just the atheistic nature of marxist communism that the church rejects, but the economic consequences as well.

[Don John of Austria]

Well I agree, it also rejects Socialism and Capitailism, but it does not Forbid Communism so long as it is willing and honest, the "right" to hold private property is not an obligation, where as the worship and honor of God is and that is why I brought it up as the example of what is most objectionanable about Marxism.

I would differ with you non the economic consequences statment because the Church does not set economic policies She does however say that certian things are morally obligatory, such as freedom to own property, and morally objectionable , such as forceing people into marxist , or socialist , or capatialist systems. But that is a differant statment than one mentioning " economic consequences.

[God Conquers]

You are correct about moral obligacy regarding edconomic consequences.
However, we know that the Church would like to see a maximum number of people make a living wage, own the means to generate wealth for their families, and reduce the amount of poverty resultant from debt (especially where usury is concerned)

So although the Church probably would never make a statement as to the most acceptable economic system, we can definately infer from her teching on social matters what systems are most agreeable, neither communism nor pure capitalism being among them.

[Don John of Austria]

no arguement there.