Natures Of The B V M

[M.SIGGA]

After doing some reading from Aquinas and excerpts from the Suma, these questions just now sort of popped in my head:

1. Since the BVM was immaculately concieved, therefore free from the state of original sin*, and was full of grace her entire life, therefore stainless from sins of ommission* and commission* and free from the penalties due, how is it that she died at the end of her earthly life before being assumed into heaven?

2. And since the BVM was totally free from all* sin, how is it that she was/is able to feel pain and sorrow? Eve didn't feel pain and sorrow until after the Fall, but was blissfully ignorant like a child before the act of sin, so how is it that the New Eve is somewhat like everyone else concerning the penalties (pain, etc) of human imperfection?

I know there is always the answer "Because God willed it that way," but is there an official argument that answer's these questions? Aquinas' argument explaining the nature and justification of Original Sin just confused me even more - is there another Nature of the BVM or argument that I've left out that could help answer these questions?

Thanks, Sincerely Confused

[M.SIGGA]

I totally didn't see Flip's post lol. By pains and sorrows, I specifically meant in regards to the 7 Dolors, not labor pains, but I guess it means those too. Thanks

[Dave]

Well ya know, Jesus had no original sin either, and yet he died and felt pain and sorrow as well. If Jesus had to experience those, then it's only fair that Mary, who is below Jesus, should experience them too.

[Theoketos]

Luke 1:29 But she was greatly troubled at what was said and pondered what sort of greeting this might be.

Luke 2:34 and Simeon blessed them and said to Mary his mother, "Behold, this child is destined for the fall and rise of many in Israel, and to be a sign that will be contradicted 35 (and you yourself a sword will pierce) 11 so that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed."

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='M.SIGGA' date='Jul 24 2004, 02:11 AM'] After doing some reading from Aquinas and excerpts from the Suma, these questions just now sort of popped in my head:

1. Since the BVM was immaculately concieved, therefore free from the state of original sin*, and was full of grace her entire life, therefore stainless from sins of ommission* and commission* and free from the penalties due, how is it that she died at the end of her earthly life before being assumed into heaven?

2. And since the BVM was totally free from all* sin, how is it that she was/is able to feel pain and sorrow? Eve didn't feel pain and sorrow until after the Fall, but was blissfully ignorant like a child before the act of sin, so how is it that the New Eve is somewhat like everyone else concerning the penalties (pain, etc) of human imperfection?

I know there is always the answer "Because God willed it that way," but is there an official argument that answer's these questions? Aquinas' argument explaining the nature and justification of Original Sin just confused me even more - is there another Nature of the BVM or argument that I've left out that could help answer these questions?

Thanks, Sincerely Confused [/quote]
1]She was still a human being.

2]Eve lived in Paradise, Mary lived in an imperfect world with sin and disease in a country occupied by the Romans. She saw death and brutality on a daily basis.
Surely someone whose heart is pure and knew the love God offers us in a more direct way than the rest of humanity, suffers more than the rest of us when she sees sin.

She suffered when Joseph wanted to divorce her, when all the babies in Bethleham were murdered, when she had to flee in the night to a foreign country.
Mary suffered.

[dUSt]

Is it defined somewhere that Adam and Eve didn't feel pain? How would one survive without it? Without pain, we wouldn't know that fire is hot or a knife is sharp. Without sorrow we wouldn't know what happiness was. Not all pain is bad.

[BurkeFan]

1. Mary, I think, instead of being given the same immortality as Adam and Eve, was given something better (ST I-I, 97, 1).
As to her preservation from original sin and the consequences of it, I do not know if that extends to what Thomas refers to as the third defects, which include thirst, hunger, death, and the like, which Damascene referred to as "natural and indetractable passions." These, Thomas says, imply no defect of knowledge or grace. (ST III, 14, 4) Since Christ had assumed upon Himself these defects, I think it's possible that Our Lady did as well.

2. Pain / sorrow, I think, is the corollary to happiness. Great joy cannot exist without (at least the possibility of) great pain, speaking existentially, I suppose. It's kind of the same thing, I think, as free will and evil. We were given free will so that we could love God to an extent and in a way that no other created thing was capable of, but the unintended consequence of that was that we could rebel against God. In order for us to love God to the greatest extent, we have to also be able to rebel against God. So too, I think, that in order for us to experience great happiness, we need to be capable of suffering great pain. Otherwise, happiness would be muted, for it would be the norm of our existence. Then, great happiness would be reduced to better-than-mediocre.
But, as relating to Adam and Eve, Scott Hahn, in Lord Have Mercy, talked about how the serpent in the Garden was not a common variety garden snake, but rather was a menacing beast which inspired fear of bodily harm and, presumably, pain resulting from the injury and or death. However, the Catechism (376) does state that "As long as he remained in the divine intimacy, man would not have to suffer or die." I can think of one possible explanation, which is really my own guess, as to the apparent discrepancy. The Catechism states that man did not have to suffer, not that man was incapable of suffering. So, as a creature capable of suffering, Adam felt something of an instinctive fear (which is also discussed by Scott Hahn on page 71 of Lord Have Mercy) at the implied threat of death.
Any immortality of Adam and Eve was, of course, conditional upon their remaining in the divine intimacy. So, they were aware of the possiblity of death (Gen 3:3). Maybe following from this it could be seen that they could fear death. But, I think that a Church Scholar would be better to answer that and correct any errors in what I have said.

[M.SIGGA]

thanks Burkefan, Cmom, Dave and Theo, but I'm still sort of puzzled.

[quote]1. Mary, I think, instead of being given the same immortality as Adam and Eve, was given something better (ST I-I, 97, 1).[/quote]
BF, does the Church give any further definition to this?

All of these responses make rational sense, but my question stems from Aquinas' defense of Original Sin. I went to Lourdes this summer, and this is where I started to have some questions. It's pretty long, so I'll keep checking for an online resource to quote, but until then, I'll try to summarize it:

[b]Aquinas justifies the existence of Original Sin against arguments that there is no way possible for a little baby to have sinned without exercise of freewill.

Aquinas says that the simple fact a baby, infant, newborn, and/or a child in the womb can feel pain, suffer, die, and decay is evidence of Original Sin. Anyone perfect, such as Adam and Eve prior to the Fall, would be exempt from these happenings - it was only when sin was introduced into the world that pain, suffering, and death became a reality for all humanity. It is this evidence we know there is such a thing as Original Sin. All of this would happen because "the wage of sin is death" (both physical and spiritual).[/b]

Soo.....

[quote]Any immortality of Adam and Eve was, of course, conditional upon their remaining in the divine intimacy. So, they were aware of the possiblity of death (Gen 3:3). Maybe following from this it could be seen that they could fear death. [/quote]
How did the BVM die if she remained totally sinless and pure w/o falling into sin her entire life (in divine intimacy?), and also from being immaculate since conception without Original Sin? The pain and sorrows issue is also sort of included in this question, but the action of physically dying seems to be a bigger question.

Thanks

[Dave]

[quote name='M.SIGGA' date='Jul 26 2004, 11:58 PM'] Soo.....


How did the BVM die if she remained totally sinless and pure w/o falling into sin her entire life (in divine intimacy?), and also from being immaculate since conception without Original Sin? The pain and sorrows issue is also sort of included in this question, but the action of physically dying seems to be a bigger question.

Thanks [/quote]
There again, Jesus died too, and yet he was sinless.

Actually, though, the Church doesn't teach that Mary died before her Assumption. Nor does it teach that she didn't. Maybe she did, or maybe she didn't. We don't know what the deal is. I know that's probably not of much help, but I thought it might serve as some food for thought.

[BurkeFan]

Mary was the New Eve, not the Old Eve. Physical death, I think, became part of human nature after the fall. Physical death is unavoidable for us, and since she was human, it was for her too, I think. If that follows...

[M.SIGGA]

[quote name='Dave' date='Jul 26 2004, 11:08 PM'] There again, Jesus died too, and yet he was sinless. 
[/quote]
#1. Jesus' other nature besides human is the AlphaOmega God and He can do what He wants

#2. Jesus cried out to heaven "my God why have You forsaken Me" when He carried the sins of the world as the perfect sacrifice, and then He died - the BVM didn't carry sin.

[Dave]

[quote name='M.SIGGA' date='Jul 27 2004, 12:20 AM'] #1. Jesus' other nature besides human is the AlphaOmega God and He can do what He wants

#2. Jesus cried out to heaven "my God why have You forsaken Me" when He carried the sins of the world as the perfect sacrifice, and then He died - the BVM didn't carry sin. [/quote]
1. True, but wouldn't it seem strange if Jesus, being God, did something of which one of God's creatures was incapable?

2. Mary united her sufferings to Jesus' cross. That's what we're all called to do. So in a way, we all carry sin. Jesus told us we had to take up our cross and follow Him.

[Guest JeffCR07]

I believe that in a post of Apotheoun's a long time ago, he explained the condition of Adam and Eve at the time of Creation. They were given not just sanctifying grace (which is divine intimicy) but ALSO four gifts, three of which I believe were [i]Integrity, Immortality,[/i] and [i]Impassibility[/i] (though I am not certain on the latter). Thus it seems to me that Immortality and Integrity (the prevention of degeneration of the body) are gifts given to us that are distinct and seperate from the sanctifying grace that is divine intimacy.

If this is true (and I believe that it is) then Mary [i]could[/i] have died, as Christ died, without it having any affect or relation whatsoever to her sinlessness. God prevented Original Sin from staining her, and so she was free of concupiscence, but he simply did not grant her those four gifts.


This seems pretty solid, though we should probably check Apotheoun's post (I can't seem to find it).

- Your Brother In Christ, Jeff

[daugher-of-Mary]

[quote]How did the BVM die if she remained totally sinless and pure w/o falling into sin her entire life (in divine intimacy?), and also from being immaculate since conception without Original Sin? The pain and sorrows issue is also sort of included in this question, but the action of physically dying seems to be a bigger question.[/quote]

The Church does not say whether or not Mary died. The Eastern Rites call her passing from this life to the next the Dormition or "falling asleep of the Mother of God." That is a good way to sum up a mystery I think.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='M.SIGGA' date='Jul 27 2004, 01:20 AM'] #1. Jesus' other nature besides human is the AlphaOmega God and He can do what He wants

#2. Jesus cried out to heaven "my God why have You forsaken Me" when He carried the sins of the world as the perfect sacrifice, and then He died - the BVM didn't carry sin. [/quote]
Jesus was acting as a good rabbi, intoning the first line of a psalm for His followers to chant. Notice it starts out questioning, but ends up triumphant abou the coming of the Messiah.

Psalm 21
O God my God, look upon me: why hast thou forsaken me? Far from my salvation are the words of my sins.
The words of my sins. . .That is, the sins of the world, which I have taken upon myself, cry out against me, and are the cause of all my sufferings.
O my God, I shall cry by day, and thou wilt not hear: and by night, and it shall not be reputed as folly in me.
But thou dwellest in the holy place, the praise of Israel.
In thee have our fathers hoped: they have hoped, and thou hast delivered them.
They cried to thee, and they were saved: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.
But I am a worm, and no man: the reproach of men, and the outcast of the people.
All they that saw me have laughed me to scorn: they have spoken with the lips, and wagged the head.
He hoped in the Lord, let him deliver him: let him save him, seeing he delighteth in him.
For thou art he that hast drawn me out of the womb: my hope from the breasts of my mother.
I was cast upon thee from the womb. From my mother's womb thou art my God,
Depart not from me. For tribulation is very near: for there is none to help me.
Many calves have surrounded me: fat bulls have besieged me.
.They have opened their mouths against me, as a lion ravening and roaring.
I am poured out like water; and all my bones are scattered. My heart is become like wax melting in the midst of my bowels.
My strength is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue hath cleaved to my jaws: and thou hast brought me down into the dust of death.
For many dogs have encompassed me: the council of the malignant hath besieged me. They have dug my hands and feet.
They have numbered all my bones. And they have looked and stared upon me.
They parted my garments amongst them; and upon my vesture they cast lots.
But thou, O Lord, remove not thy help to a distance from me; look towards my defence.
Deliver, O God, my soul from the sword: my only one from the hand of the dog.
Save me from the lion's mouth; and my lowness from the horns of the unicorns.
I will declare thy name to my brethren: in the midst of the church will I praise thee.
Ye that fear the Lord, praise him: all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him.
Let all the seed of Israel fear him: because he hath not slighted nor despised the supplication of the poor man. Neither hath he turned away his face form me: and when I cried to him he heard me.
With thee is my praise in a great church: I will pay my vows in the sight of them that fear him.
The poor shall eat and shall be filled: and they shall praise the Lord that seek him: their hearts shall live for ever and ever.
All the ends of the earth shall remember, and shall be converted to the Lord: And all the kindreds of the Gentiles shall adore in his sight.
For the kingdom is the Lord's; and he shall have dominion over the nations.
All the fat ones of the earth have eaten and have adored: all they that go down to the earth shall fall before him.
And to him my soul shall live: and my seed shall serve him.
There shall be declared to the Lord a generation to come: and the heavens shall shew forth his justice to a people that shall be born, which the Lord hath made.

Mary didn't carry sin, but she did carry the greatest sorrow, watching the Son of God and her little boy die.

[mmmerf]

Hmm.

1. I haven't read thomas aquinas on this subject. So I'm gonna freestyle for a bit. Hoo-hah.

2. Mary was preserved from the stain of sin by the grace of her redeemer, Jesus Christ. He saved her every bit as much as he's saving the rest of us, just with her, he did it a little earlier. (We could call this 'Phoning ahead to ensure you had a womb upon arrival'.)(Zing!)

3. Augustine, I believe, said that the rewards of sin are sin.

4. She could have been preserved from sinning, but the physical effects of sin, visited upon the whole of humanity, may have affected her as well.

4a. This theory is backed up by the unfortunate fact that children sometimes die before the age of reason - I.e. before they can choose to sin.

4b. I suppose that one needs to differentiate between the physical effects of original sin (Death, work, hangnails, labour pains, paper cuts etc.) and the effects of original sin upon our will(concupiscence (sp?), continued popularity of Rod Stewart, etc.) Grace affects our will, our ability to choose God. But does grace (the indwelling of the Holy Spirit) change us physically, or is that something different (i.e. miraculous intervention?) Because this would back up Gabriel's greeting of 'Hail, full of grace.'


5. This (living with the physical effects of sin) would have caused greater devotion from her towards her son and Lord, as she would have had a greater understanding for the need for mankind's redemption. One has to think if she is the perfect disciple, she would have had a perfect understanding of her need of her Lord. This would have been accomplished here.

6. Mmm. tacos, so very tasty and good for you,.

Cheers,

Dave

[M.SIGGA]

[quote name='Dave' date='Jul 27 2004, 12:29 AM']1. True, but wouldn't it seem strange if Jesus, being God, did something of which one of God's creatures was incapable?
[/quote]
The question was never about Jesus. What makes the BVM different is that she was totally human and never touched sin in any form ever. I think your "_" might have gone way over my head; if it did, sorry.

I'm really trying show the most respect for the Queen of Heaven in this post, so please bear with me as I try to carefully explain my questions

[quote]I believe that in a post of Apotheoun's a long time ago, he explained the condition of Adam and Eve at the time of Creation. They were given not just sanctifying grace (which is divine intimicy) but ALSO four gifts, three of which I believe were Integrity, Immortality, and Impassibility (though I am not certain on the latter). Thus it seems to me that Immortality and Integrity (the prevention of degeneration of the body) are gifts given to us that are distinct and seperate from the sanctifying grace that is divine intimacy.

If this is true (and I believe that it is) then Mary could have died, as Christ died, without it having any affect or relation whatsoever to her sinlessness. God prevented Original Sin from staining her, and so she was free of concupiscence, but he simply did not grant her those four gifts.[/quote]

I'm checking this out... really really interesting. Is "Immaculate" the fourth?

[quote]The Church does not say whether or not Mary died. The Eastern Rites call her passing from this life to the next the Dormition or "falling asleep of the Mother of God." That is a good way to sum up a mystery I think. [/quote]

All the Catechism says is "when her life was finished" so I guess that means that she might not have actually died and fell asleep sort of instead I think... this idea seems answer my question about the possibilty of death.

How does the BVM understand humans, who are bombarded with grief and shame and pain and death if she never experienced it herself? Is it totally through united sufferings? because I don't understand how the BVM could actually take on all the sufferings of her Son, who is God.

I can see how someone innocent and pure can experience sorrow and physical pain, but how can someone experience real grief, depression, shame, and death(?) if they are totally pure and immaculate and showered in grace? Aren't these things related to imperfection and sin?

Thanks again.

[Guest JeffCR07]

[quote]How does the BVM understand humans, who are bombarded with grief and shame and pain and death if she never experienced it herself? Is it totally through united sufferings? because I don't understand how the BVM could actually take on all the sufferings of her Son, who is God.

I can see how someone innocent and pure can experience sorrow and physical pain, but how can someone experience real grief, depression, shame, and death(?) if they are totally pure and immaculate and showered in grace? Aren't these things related to imperfection and sin?[/quote]

Sigga, I believe that others, including yourself, have hinted at the answer already. We must understand that the "sinlessness" of Mary was not merely a lack of something (sin) but was an addition of perfect Sanctifying Grace. This Sanctifying Grace makes her connection to all of humanity significantly more intimate than anything you or I could ever know.

Let me try an example:

An aquaintance of yours is suffering from depression. You feel "sorry" for her, and experience a little bit of grief when you hear about it, but that is about it.

A friend of your is suffering from depression. You feel "sorry" for her, and experience quite a bit of grief when you hear about it, because she is dear to you.

Your Best Friend is suffering from depression. You feel more than "sorry" you are wracked with pain, because this is someone who is so very close to your heart, and your grief is extreme.

Your Daughter is suffering from depression. Your entire world is turned upside down. Sometimes it is even hard to breathe when you see how sad she is, becuase your feel her pain as your own.

Now you are the Blessed Virgin, whose connection to each and every one of us is infinitely deeper even than that of a parent. She is not only our Mother in a very real sense, but she is our Perfect Mother. She doesn't have the barriers of selfishness, pride, and egoism to shield her - even in part - from the suffering of her children. She feels our pains, sorrows, and sins as much (or even perhaps more) than we do ourselves.

Just another little analogy:

Someone who has a very old, beat up car is not likely to notice or feel bad when a pebble puts a little dent in someone else's car. However, if someone who is in possession of a brand new, beautiful, flawless sports car, I promise you that that person will wince if they see the pebble strike and dent another person's car.

How much more then will it be with Mary, who is concerned with something infinitely more valuable than cars, and is also infinitely closer to them than the man in the example?

Ultimately, Sigga, if anything, I would argue that Mary's Immaculate-ness could only be argued in a way that it would [i]increase[/i] the pain and suffering she feels for us, not negate it.

- Your Brother In Christ, Jeff

[M.SIGGA]

thanks Jeff, that's exactly the analogy I needed to hear and it helps tremendously

[daugher-of-Mary]

Wow, Jeff. That is beautiful! Thank you!