Genesis

[carrdero]

Aloysius writes:your discussion with God, seeing as it contradicts the discussion of God's people with God throughout history, must be influenced too much on preconceived notions and ideas that formed to you a conclusion.

Actually I never preconcieve any ideas before I talk with GOD which was why the outcome to the conversation was so surprising. As far as conclusions contradicting in the heart of GOD's people and throughout history I do remember a time (well not me personally) not so long ago that many people thought the world was flat and the earth was the center of the universe.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='carrdero' date='Jul 29 2004, 05:05 PM'] Apotheoun writes:Thus, I cannot agree with your private interpretation of the text.

You have that right to not agree, though I must admit its not all that private. [/quote]
Catholics distinguish between private interpretations of scripture, which bind no one in conscience, and which if they are contrary to the defined doctrine of the Church, must be rejected; and the authentic interpretation of scripture which can be given by the Magisterium of the Church alone. [Vatican 2, Dogmatic Constitution Dei Verbum, no. 10]

Thus, I am bound to believe by divine and catholic faith that the narrative of Genesis 3 describes the fall of man from grace and original justice, but I am in no way bound to accept your interpretation of the text. Moreover, since your interpretation of the narrative does not conform to the dogma of the Church, I am bound to reject it as deficient.

God bless,
Todd

[carrdero]

Apotheoun writes: Thus, I am bound to believe by divine and catholic faith that the narrative of Genesis 3 describes the fall of man from grace and original justice, but I am in no way bound to accept your interpretation of the text. Moreover, since your interpretation of the narrative does not conform to the dogma of the Church, I am bound to reject it as deficient.

And I would never expect you to accept it as a TRUTH. But as a belief, (whether is it mine or someone elses) it already exists with or without us. Like many people participating in PhatMass I'm just "throwing it out there."

“Faith is believing in things when common sense tells you not to.”
-- George Seaton

“A Great Escape into faith is no retreat to safety. It is nothing less than surrender.”
-- Dan Barker, Losing Faith in Faith: From Preacher to Atheist

[Aloysius]

For Catholics, what they believe IS TRUE.

it's just interesting that you talked to God and He told you something different than He told His Church. makes me think that perhaps it was something else telling you this: perhaps your own intellect and reason worked it out in your head to be that way and you mistook it for a revelation of God. or perhaps you were not conversing with God but with the devil. God is not a God of confusion, and will not contradict Himself. Therefore, your talk with God which informed you of something contrary to Divine Catholic Faith which has been revealed by God to His people could not have been the One True God. the Apostles and their successors are the protecters and teachers of the Word of God, that which is contrary to their teaching we will not accept.

[p0lar_bear]

[quote name='carrdero' date='Jul 29 2004, 04:20 PM'] The book of GENESIS to me is one of the most suspicious books in the Bible. One reason I think is because GOD does not really come out smelling like a rose. So I brought up this question with GOD and I was very surprised with the results and I hope this helps.
It seems that the episode of the Garden Of Eden is mankind's first introduction to challenges and the the original serpent doesn't particularly stand for evil or sin but instead stands in for the obstacles that we encounter in our daily lives such as doubt, fear and conflict. When Adam and Eve faced the choice of eating the symbolic fruit of UNDERSTANDING, they approached it as a conflict instead of a decision. In Adam and Eve's case there was the fear of dying that was introduced. The doubt of not living up to someone else's expectations.
GOD then goes on to express that "Conflicts were never intended for humankind. Challenges were. You have obstacles to overcome at every turn of your lives. Notice I said “overcome.” Never did I imply there ever is an obstacle that could not BE overcome. YOU should not fall prey to obstacles. Never let them rule YOUR existence or YOUR freedom to live happily, comfortably, considerately." [/quote]
You know what? I brought this up with God, and He said He never told you that.

hmmm...do I believe that God tod you that or believe that God told me that He did nto tell you that? Or do I believe that God told us contradictary things?

Do you see the problem?

God doesn't lie and God doesn't contradict Himself. So, if two people think God is telling them contradictary things, one of the people is wrong. How do you tell which one is wrong?

[carrdero]

Aloysius writes: it's just interesting that you talked to God and He told you something different than He told His Church

Yeah I know it seems like throughout history GOD is notorius for this. Let's see we have Moses, Jesus, Edgar Cayce, David Koresh, Neale Donald Walsh, Apostle John, Joseph Smith, Jim Jones, Charlie Manson. I guess its not really fashionable are belivable to have an ongoing relationship with a Supreme Being these days.

Aloysius writes: makes me think that perhaps it was something else telling you this
or perhaps you were not conversing with God but with the devil.

Though the Being that I spoke with did claim that it was GOD I do not plan to prove or disapprove the authenticity of the being. All I know is that I had questions about life, about GOD about my purpose and I was very wary of religious organizations counseling (read:warning) me what was expected of my life that I thought I would get it right from the source. The Being that I conversed with was very patient, very loving and very understanding of not only my ignorance but of my desires for knowledge. There were some responses that I received that I still have a hard time accepting as TRUTH but until I can prove them to myself they will remain as beliefs to consider.

Aloysius writes: Therefore, your talk with God which informed you of something contrary to Divine Catholic Faith which has been revealed by God to His people could not have been the One True God.

I must reiterate again I was very pleased with some of the answers that I received and wasn't surprised that some information would fly against most accepted established hardened religious beliefs. But one thing many people should understand is that GOD is not Jewish or Protestant, GOD was not baptised Catholic, Born Again or Baptist or even Jehovah Witness.

Aloysius writes: The Apostles and their successors are the protecters and teachers of the Word of God, that which is contrary to their teaching we will not accept.

Unfortunately the original apostles were not able to be reached for comment. My relationship with GOD is very personal and very real. I am sure that the Apostles had their own personal relationship with their own personal problems and concerns that they were experiencing during their own time and that is fine, but my concerns and queries are what define me as an individual in the time that I am existing now. I choose to consider and respect other peoples beliefs but not to let other people define my life which is very different from the lives that the apostles led. If anything, Jesus and the apostles through their ministry, opened the floor to the possibilities the any human can have a realistic relationship with GOD. This is my purpose as well. Though you may see me sharing my beliefs and findings throughout this forum I am not looking for acceptance or for any acknowledgment to my posts because I am full aware that if you don't believe what I am saying you may always ask GOD yourself and recieve your own beliefs and encourage your own relationship.

[Aloysius]

There is only ONE Truth. God does not contradict Himself.

I watched my one friend once have a conversation with God. It was quite theatrical and I believe he believed every second of it as if he was truly speaking to God. God told him that it is evil to have anything that you want but do not absolutely need. God told him that Adam and Eve were literal people, and original sin was literally eating an apple from a tree, and that Adam and Eve did not have souls before the fall. God told him that one day there would be women priests. God told him that one day all other rites of the Catholic Church would be abolished and there would only be the Latin Rite (which is absolutely absurd, rites are simply different ways of expressing truths). God alledgedly told him many many things, many of which contradict what God alledgedly told you. Both you and my friend have great imaginations at the least, at the worst you are conversing with spirits we are not meant to talk to without calling upon the power of the One Almighty God.

You sited many people as if they had talked to God, but many of those people contradict each other and you, what say you about that? Did God lie to one of them?

[carrdero]

Aloysius writes: There is only ONE Truth. God does not contradict Himself.

Actually there are two TRUTHS. There is UNIVERSAL TRUTH and PERSONAL TRUTH. Both are ABSOLUTE. A UNIVERSAL TRUTH (actually an earthly truth) is that fire is hot. A PERSONAL TRUTH is that no matter how hot fire is, I do not like being burned by it. Some people do enjoy it (fire-walkers come to mind) I am not one of them.

Aloysius writes: I watched my one friend once have a conversation with God. It was quite theatrical and I believe he believed every second of it as if he was truly speaking to God.

Having a personal relationship with GOD is not a spectacle (not yet anyway, though the Sci-Fi Channel and UPN are still in negotiations) it is not a magic act it is a very NATURAL way to communicate with another Being. As simple as we are doing it here.

Aloysius writes: You sited many people as if they had talked to God, but many of those people contradict each other and you, what say you about that? Did God lie to one of them?

Actually the common factor with some of those people I listed is that they didn't handle their relationship with GOD very well (not a judgment just an observance). Some become overzealous and apply undue importance to their lives and misunderstand their realtionship to GOD. This happens in normal relationships we try to encourage with other people as well.
Some people who have contact with GOD have to many expectations about a Supreme Being and when they are not forthcoming they promote their own. Many organized religions have been accused of doing this. As long as I have really known GOD he has not promised me anything except to be there for me when I need to talk. To me I think that is enough.
I am not pronouncing myself as the second coming, I am not GOD's chosen "homey" and I am certainly not running for "Christ" I am a normal man who has found an unusual but NATURAL friend in GOD.
I feel that my talks with GOD will be everlasting, not only in execution but also in remembrance and understanding.

“Revelation, as I know it, is what happens when GOD tries to get our attention and we, reluctantly or enthusiastically or even inadvertently, give it.... We expect revelation to explain, solve our puzzles, provide assurance in the face of doubt. But when GOD calls attention, explanation is seldom what we get. What is offered instead is conversation and challenge.”
– Patrick Henry


“Beauty is truth, truth beauty; that is all ye know on Earth, and all ye need to know.”
-- John Keats (1795-1821)

[-I---Love]

I don't have the energy to go into detail

but THANK YOU CARRDERO!!!

For once I have just witnessed ppl talking about their REAL PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD!

Al - it seems to me that the friend u were referring to can not compare as an example to carrdero b/c that friend was conversing in public and has dif. weird stories than carrdero appears to -

"GOD IS NOT A SPECIFIC RELIGION" - YESSSSSSSSSSS!!!

GOD IS BIGGER THAN THE CHURCH - FINALLY SOMEONE SAID IT HERE

"I must reiterate again I was very pleased with some of the answers that I received" - I do have a question about this part carrdero b/c why would YOU be pleased by the answers God gave - do you mean they were the answers you wanted and were looking for and you got them or you were pleased to be graced w/ God's truth to you???

[carrdero]

I-LOVE writes:"I must reiterate again I was very pleased with some of the answers that I received" - I do have a question about this part carrdero b/c why would YOU be pleased by the answers God gave - do you mean they were the answers you wanted and were looking for and you got them or you were pleased to be graced w/ God's truth to you???

I was pleased because most of the answers challenged my thinking, pleased because after ignorance comes understanding. Pleased because GOD loves me enough to impart wisdom with me.

[Aloysius]

God reveals truth through the Catholic Church. This subject relates to a truth about the faith. God will not teach you this truth through prayer, He will teach you by the Church He has sent into the world.

FYI: I do not have a personal relationship with God. I have a familial relationship with God. We hang out as a family, not just one on one private interpretation private revelation stuff.

God has elevated His Church and made it Divine. There is no contradiction between God and His Church. The Church is the Body of Christ, the Church is Divine, the Church is infallible, the Church is spotless. To say "God is bigger than the Church" is putting an unnecessary seperation between God and the Church. We know no more about God on this earth than what the Catholic Church teaches us. God dwells within organized religion, not disorganized religion.

Anyway, i have absolutely no personal relationship with God. I don't talk to Him without taking into account the entire family.

There is one Absolute Truth, and there are our subjective preferences. These are not truth, these can change.

[Aloysius]

revelation is that which is contained in the Bible and the teaching of the Catholic Church. private revelation is generally influenced by emotions. you cannot find truth by simply asking God, that's not how He decided to work.

[carrdero]

Aloysius writes:God reveals truth through the Catholic Church.

Actually GOD reveals TRUTHS through almost anything. Any outside stimuli that you can feel, see, hear or acknowledge with your other senses can detect TRUTHS. No one should limit their sources to TRUTH.

Aloysius writes: God will not teach you this truth through prayer, He will teach you by the Church He has sent into the world.

I didn't learn that fire was hot and could burn me through praying to GOD or my direct relation to the Catholic Church. It was something I learned and proved by myself. The ironic part of this statement is that yes sometimes proven TRUTHS can hurt.

Aloysius writes: FYI: I do not have a personal relationship with God.
FYI: That is okay that you do not have a personal relationship with GOD. GOD understands and you shall not be judged or condemned because of it. But the question remains-do you want a personal relationship with GOD? Some people do not have the time, some feel that GOD is hard to approach (in all actuality GOD is easier to get in touch with then the president or the pope). Some people feel it is unrealistic or are afraid of what they may discover in knowing GOD.

Aloysius writes:I have a familial relationship with God. We hang out as a family, not just one on one private interpretation private revelation stuff.

I think GOD enjoys large groups or families gathering together for a common interest. I believe that this is why churches exist and people attend them.

Aloysius writes: God dwells within organized religion, not disorganized religion.

GOD dwells within us. If one of us just happens to be involved in an organized religion or not GOD is with us.

Aloysius writes: revelation is that which is contained in the Bible and the teaching of the Catholic Church. private revelation is generally influenced by emotions. you cannot find truth by simply asking God, that's not how He decided to work.

Revelation is anything that moves you in spirit and purpose and the dictionary taught me that, not the Bible. As far as finding TRUTH with GOD by just asking, this is what GOD does. This is what GOD excels at-this I believe is GOD's true PURPOSE. To guide and help those who ask for it. To help people understand at anytime, anywhere and in anyway.

[Aloysius]

When I speak of TRUTH i speak of truth of FAITH and MORALS. Jesus IS TRUTH. Jesus speaks through His Church.

I am a member of a Family, the Holy Apostolic Church, which teaches all truths in regards to faith and morals. anything that contradicts that is fallacy.

as regards to my relationship with God, it is not MERELY personal, but familial. That's much deeper than personal.

Edited July 31, 2004 by Aloysius

[-I---Love]

thanks for answering my ? carrdero

how ironic - I was PLEASED w/ ur answer

I very much agree w/ all u have said so more props!

[Aloysius]

just so you know, you're agreeing with Patrickist theology and not Catholic Theology

[carrdero]

p0lar_bear writes; You know what? I brought this up with God, and He said He never told you that.

You know what? GOD told me you would say something like that.

p0lar_bear writes; hmmm...do I believe that God tod you that or believe that God told me that He did nto tell you that? Or do I believe that God told us contradictary things?
Do you see the problem?

God doesn't lie and God doesn't contradict Himself. So, if two people think God is telling them contradictary things, one of the people is wrong. How do you tell which one is wrong?

"If you can deduce truth physically by acquiring evidence to use as proof there is no where else for a truth to go accept to turn into a belief again."-Phillip J. Klass

The comments I post are my beliefs, they can't be TRUTHS because I haven't proven them to myself yet. If you notice the majority of the comments posted on these boards are peoples feelings, opinions and beliefs and- I will respect them. As for your comment that you believe that GOD said he never spoke to me I can do nothing more than respect your belief that this incident actually took place.

[Aloysius]

except these are not mere feelings or opinions, but rather Divinely Revealed Truth. We're saying that because our God has personally revealed Himself, we can KNOW about Him without doubt, but with CERTAINTY, we know what is true and what is not true. we do not need to turn to feelings or beliefs, but we are taught the Divine and Catholic Faith which is 100% TRUE. anyway, this debate is getting fruitless, so I shall leave. just know that we don't base our doctrines on our feelings or opinions, but on the constant 2000 yr. old teaching of the Catholic Church regardless of what we feel or think about it. we are approaching it from two different viewpoints: one that does not believe we can absolutely know what is true about God and what is false, and another who believes it has all been revealed through His Word and through His Church and it is not merely belief or opinion or feeling but TRUTH.

[carrdero]

Aloysius writes: except these are not mere feelings or opinions, but rather Divinely Revealed Truth.

Then I should be interested to seeing the proof on how you arrived to these TRUTHS

Aloysius writes: but we are taught the Divine and Catholic Faith which is 100% TRUE.

You are using Faith and TRUTH in the same sentence. Faith is not TRUTH. You are also explaining to me that your TRUTHS define your faith. There is no TRUTH in faith. In fact faith is not even a NATURAL process to TRUTH. You can encourage a belief to TRUTH but you can't faith a belief to TRUTH. Faith automatically stops an individual from proving understanding for themselves. Faith is wishful thinking it is another way of someone saying "You will just have to take my word for it?" Faith may also be considered as a way of believing blindly. Is this how GOD would like us to arrive to our TRUTHS? Wouldn't it be more practical if there was a belief that was really important for us to become a TRUTH that we should exhaust all the evidence and accumulate all the PROOF so that we can pronounce it as a TRUTH. Just because GOD tells me that fire is hot don't you think that GOD would understand that as a human I may want to take this belief and PROVE it to be a TRUTH for myself? Do we not have that freedom as humans to do so?

Aloysius writes: just know that we don't base our doctrines on our feelings or opinions, but on the constant 2000 yr. old teaching of the Catholic Church regardless of what we feel or think about it.

Though I have a great deal of respect for you and the Catholic Church I don't think that you should confuse quantity as quality. GOD, and the infinite wisdom
that accompanies a Supreme Being has been around much longer than that.

"The best knowledge to aquire is through experience or observation I never retained much knowledge that was taught to me."-Mark Twain

Edited July 31, 2004 by carrdero

[Tora-Musume]

[quote name='carrdero' date='Jul 31 2004, 10:31 AM'] "The best knowledge to aquire is through experience or observation I never retained much knowledge that was taught to me."-Mark Twain [/quote]
I agree. I have learned more through experiences and observations than teachings. Specially when I was in school. I was really bored with the teachers and their teachings. I know that they mean well and that they are there to teach me. I never listened to the teachers but managed to get excempt from the regions exam . Now I learn everything through experiences and observations.

[quote]Though I have a great deal of respect for you and the Catholic Church I don't think that you should confuse quantity as quality. GOD, and the infinite wisdom
that accompanies a Supreme Being has been around much longer than that.
[/quote]
How long have they been around?

[quote]The comments I post are my beliefs, they can't be TRUTHS because I haven't proven them to myself yet. If you notice the majority of the comments posted on these boards are peoples feelings, opinions and beliefs and- I will respect them. As for your comment that you believe that GOD said he never spoke to me I can do nothing more than respect your belief that this incident actually took place. [/quote]

When you spoke to GOD, was he objective? Does GOD object? How did GOD come to talk to you? Did you call upon him?

Edited August 2, 2004 by Tora-Musume