Flawed?

[Dusty Fro]

Do you think in the history of the Church, the head dudes have made any mistakes? For example, the Crusades. A modern person can agree that a violent crusade is no way to convert people, and it's something that non believers hold over the Church's head as a reason they don't want to be a part of Christianity, even though it happened a long time ago.

[Apotheoun]

The Church, like her divine Head, is sinless, for the Church is the perpetual extension of the incarnation throughout time. But that being said, the members of the Church fall into sins daily and must constantly repent by the grace of God. Thus, it is clear that Christians, as individuals, have committed terrible crimes in the past, and some no doubt still do, and many will do so in the future, but that is the purpose of the sacrament of confession.

You might want to read a document issued by the International Theological Commission under the aegis of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, entitled:

[url="http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/cti_documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000307_memory-reconc-itc_en.html"]MEMORY AND RECONCILIATION: The Church and the Faults of the Past[/url]

To read the document click the title provided above.

[Don John of Austria]

The Crusades where good and holy things inspired by God for the Defense of Christians and of the Church.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Dusty Fro' date='Jul 28 2004, 04:07 AM'] Do you think in the history of the Church, the head dudes have made any mistakes? For example, the Crusades. A modern person can agree that a violent crusade is no way to convert people, and it's something that non believers hold over the Church's head as a reason they don't want to be a part of Christianity, even though it happened a long time ago. [/quote]
THe Crusades were to[i] rescue[/i] the Holy Land from the Muslims.

[Guest JeffCR07]

dusty, just to reiterate what some have said, I think it is really important that we get our facts straight. The Crusades were primarily about preserving the Holy Land from Muslims (which falls under, in my opinion, a Just War). The notion of "conversion" was limited to personal endevours and, while certainly a wonderful goal, it was [i]not[/i] as if the Church was telling people to "Go to Jerusalem, subdue the heretics, and, if they do not convert immediately, kill them all." Rather, the Church was saying "Go to Jerusalem and fight to keep it open to all catholics."

- Your Brother In Christ, Jeff

[kateri05]

actually, not just catholics, for the Reformation had not yet begun. At the very least, the First Crusade (there were 5 or 6, i believe some not even called by Popes) was a called for the preservation of the Holy Land for Christians everywhere, for the right of Christian believers to make pilgrimages to the holy places of Christ's life and death and to where the Apostles walked. To reiterate what others have said, and kind of combine, the Church and the Pope who called it (urban I? innocent? anyone? my church history stinks ), were not mistaken. people IN the crusades may have done less than charitable things but the Church herself did the right thing.
sorry, i'll get off my soapbox, i just get frustrated when people bash the Church for the crusades when they don't always understand the background. not that anyone HERE was doing that, i'm just saying. its touchy

[Aloysius]

what else would you have us do when Christians are being persecuted and all of Christendom is threatened by the muslims? let them take over Europe? (don't think they weren't thinkin about it...)

[justfran]

The Crusades also took place around the turn of the millennium. Some thought that something huge was going to happen on December 25, and they wanted to be in the Holy Land to see it happen. Of course they'd be doing whatever they could to defend it from the Muslims.

[Dusty Fro]

Well I'm a pacifist, so it seems pretty horrible to me. It doesn't show the love that I see from Jesus' life on Earth. Jesus didn't kill people, He was killed.

[MichaelFilo]

Jesus did not teach pacifism. While any of the excelent apologists here can tell you a very good summary of why pacifism was not taught by Jesus, I'll give you my own. War is justified ( visit Catholic.com for a good article on the Just War doctrine that the Catholic Church holds ). If pacifism was the way, which in itself is non-confrontational, then you'd definatly be going against what Jesus taught. Jesus was all about confrontation, and telling people what they were doing was wrong. The one time when he went into the temple and did what he did to the money changers and everyone else who was descrating His Father's temple seemed very confrontational, and non-pacifist. The Old Testament is full of times when God allowed wars and intervened and helped His people. Also remember, Jesus didn't come into this world to bring peace, but the sword.

God bless,

Michael Filo

[Aloysius]

Jesus commanded "if anyone does not have a sword let him sell his coat and buy one" St. Luke 22:36

[PedroX]

Dusty,

Pacifism is well and good, but, like moderation, one must be careful not to over do it.

The crusades were originally sent to rescue the Christians (both east and west) from the invading Muslims. (This was the first example of the so called religion of peace) The crusades were a defensive measure, not offensive. Were mistakes made? Yes. Do most history books tell the truth about the crusades? No. And, don't believe the Da Vinci code. Its all bogus.

peace...

[Dusty Fro]

I haven't read the DaVinci Code, and I'm still horrified by most of you.

Pacifism is not neccessarily non-confrontational. What the Crusades did was to put a black mark on Christianity for the rest of history. Try ministering to someone from the Middle East or India. A common reaction is "your people killed my people." They don't believe or trust in our God because to them, our God hates them.

[PedroX]

Dusty,

Forgive me, but what does India have to do with the crusades?

Also, how much of Muslim history and culture have you studied? Have you read the Koran? Are you familiar with the pasages that speak of conquering the world? For that matter, are you familiar with secular history? How do you propose the west should have responded to the Muslim wars of conquering the middle east, Spain and North Africa? Should we have just allowed them to keep conquering in hopes that we would have a better witness 1000 years later?

peace...

[Brother Adam]

Dusty, in the Crusades, Christians did not just go about killing people for the sake of killing people. It's a complicated history like any history. There is much more to the Revolutionary War than just "Oh, America killed a lot of people from Britian"

I'd start by reading www.catholic.com 's tract on the crusades.

[MichaelFilo]

I was born in Baghdad Iraq. I come from a Catholic family, from both sides. Your arguement isn't based on history but popular mistunderstanding imposed by anti-Catholic thinking that has spread outside of the Protestant circle and has infected the natinon as a whole. With that said, I harbor no resentment against the crusades, just as I harbor no resentment against iran who attacked Iraq before I was born. The Crusades were justified. My friend is Indian by the way, he probably has no inkling of what the crusades are/were, probably because he is ignorant to history, but more than likely because the crusades never went down there anyways. The crusades were mostly a victory for the muslims in the end anyways. The intention was good, and the cause was good, just didn't work out is all.

God bless,

Mikey

[Quietfire]

Mikey,
Youre from Iraq? Are your parents American, or Iraqi? And both of em Catholic? Cool beans!
What are your views on this war?

Its so cool that youre from Iraq.


Peace.

[Dusty Fro]

I included India because a lot of people who live in India have ancestoral ties to the Middle East. An Indan man I know protested a Campus Crusade campaign because the organization had the word "crusade" in it, which made him think of the Christians who killed his ancestors.

I have read the Koran. I know the amount of violence contained in the text. It doesn't make it right for them to be actively violent no more than it's right for the church to proclaim a holy war.

[MichaelFilo]

Yes both my parents are Catholic. The war isn't something I'm parading over, I've lost an uncle and today they blew up a 2 churches and my cousin is badly hurt. None of my family fought against the US, and my dad works for the US army over there. Anyways, fro, please consider the value of the holy places in the holy land and their importance then and now. People would fight to keep them under their control, just as much as you'd try to stop somebody from moving into your house and caliming your room, because you know if you never say anything they'll take over the rest of your house ( bad analogy, but I tried ).

God bless,

Mikey

[Quietfire]

Mikey,
I am so sorry about the loss of your Uncle and I will be praying for the completer recovery of your cousin.
I just think it's wonderful that someone on PM is from Iraq. Hopefully, you can educate us all on life there, I dont really watch the news anymore, but I listen to it on 880 News out of NYC(on my radio)

I heard about the two churches, I had heard that one was a Catholic Church, the other was simply stated as christian.

Since you still have alot of family in Iraq, is there anything I can do for them, besides prayer.

I've been having these urges to do SOMETHING lately, and its getting stronger.

PM me if you need to.

Peace.

Edited August 1, 2004 by Quietfire