Have You?

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='M.SIGGA' date='Jul 30 2004, 11:22 PM'] no, I attended primary school at a christian academy and I sang in the choir. this was one of my favorite songs. I used to know, and I guess I still do, all these traditional genre songs by heart. [/quote]
I don't see how this song is compatible with Catholicism, since she teaches that you must do good works (ie penance) to expunge your sins.

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='thedude' date='Jul 31 2004, 08:19 AM'] ICTHUS,
What type of Calvinist are you? [/quote]
At the moment, four point. I'm still waiting to be convinced of Limited Atonement. Why?

[ICTHUS]

[quote]Wrong again ryan. Your new psudotheology does not add up.

[b]St John 20:21 [/b]
(Jesus) said to them again, "[color=red]Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.[/color]"
[b]22 [/b]And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "[color=red]Receive the holy Spirit. [/color]
[b]23 [/b][color=red]Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained[/color]."


[b]St James 5:14[/b]
Is anyone among you sick? He should summon the presbyters of the church, and they should pray over him and anoint (him) with oil in the name of the Lord,
[b]15 [/b]and the prayer of faith will save the sick person, and the Lord will raise him up. If he has committed any sins, he will be forgiven. 
[b]16 [/b]Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful. [/quote] Even if we take your viewpoint on this, who's to say that this power continued past the Apostles?

[quote][b]The Didache[/b]

"Confess your sins in church, and do not go up to your prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of life. . . . On the Lord’s Day gather together, break bread, and give thanks, after confessing your transgressions so that your sacrifice may be pure" (Didache 4:14, 14:1 [A.D. 70]). [/quote] Confess your sins in church. Yes. This doesn't mean 'Confess them to a priest' however.

[b]The Letter of Barnabas[/b]

[quote]"You shall judge righteously. You shall not make a schism, but you shall pacify those that contend by bringing them together. You shall confess your sins. You shall not go to prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of light" (Letter of Barnabas 19 [A.D. 74]). [/quote] Confess your sins. To God. We Protestants believe this.

[quote]Come with some quotes from the first Christians and Scripture if you want to prove a point. Show us all your beliefs taught in 200 AD, 300 AD, 500 AD, 1000 AD, 1400 AD. If they were not taught then it cannot be the Church established by Christ.[/quote] Duh! Were not the Apostles the first Christians? Why should I trust the Fathers, since their words were not inspired by God?

You quoted Scripture about 'supporting the law'

You had quoted Romans 3:29-31 to support your doctrines that man is justified by both faith and works. Yet in the next chapter, St. Paul explicitly says that a man is justified by [i]faith[/i] and [b]not by works of the law[/b]. You'd have to be pretty creative in order to come up with works that were outside the Law, since Jesus Himself said that the summary of the Law is to love your neighbor as yourself, and the Lord your God with all your mind, soul, and strength!

As for your quoting Romans 6, of course we beleive that we must avoid sin! By the regeneration of the Holy Spirit which is given by grace alone, through faith alone, we are made dead to sin and alive in Christ. Of course if we love Him, we will obey His commandments!

Of course those who are given much are expected to do much!

[ironmonk]

Trying to change the subject.


[quote]Even if we take your viewpoint on this, who's to say that this power continued past the Apostles?[/quote]

It's not my viewpoint, it is the truth established by Christ's Church. If you read the bible, and study what the first Christians wrote you would understand.

These letters were written to the new disciples, not to the Apostles. Disciples had the power to make more disciples, and they have the power to forgive sins.

We know the power continued because that is what the First Christians taught... We know it continued because of the Sacrament of Confirmation and Holy Orders.


[b]Pope Clement I[/b]

"Through countryside and city [the apostles] preached, and they appointed their earliest converts, testing them by the Spirit, to be the bishops and deacons of future believers. Nor was this a novelty, for bishops and deacons had been written about a long time earlier. . . . Our apostles knew through our Lord Jesus Christ that there would be strife for the office of bishop. For this reason, therefore, having received perfect foreknowledge, they appointed those who have already been mentioned and afterwards added the further provision that, if they should die, other approved men should succeed to their ministry" (Letter to the Corinthians 42:4–5, 44:1–3 [A.D. 80]).


[b]Hegesippus[/b]

"When I had come to Rome, I [visited] Anicetus, whose deacon was Eleutherus. And after Anicetus [died], Soter succeeded, and after him Eleutherus. In each succession and in each city there is a continuance of that which is proclaimed by the law, the prophets, and the Lord" (Memoirs, cited in Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History 4:22 [A.D. 180]).


[b]Irenaeus[/b]

"It is possible, then, for everyone in every church, who may wish to know the truth, to contemplate the tradition of the apostles which has been made known to us throughout the whole world. And we are in a position to enumerate those who were instituted bishops by the apostles and their successors down to our own times, men who neither knew nor taught anything like what these heretics rave about" (Against Heresies 3:3:1 [A.D. 189]).

"But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the successions of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul—that church which has the tradition and the faith with which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. For with this Church, because of its superior origin, all churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world. And it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition" (ibid., 3:3:2).

"Polycarp also was not only instructed by apostles, and conversed with many who had seen Christ, but was also, by apostles in Asia, appointed bishop of the church in Smyrna, whom I also saw in my early youth, for he tarried [on earth] a very long time, and, when a very old man, gloriously and most nobly suffering martyrdom, departed this life, having always taught the things which he had learned from the apostles, and which the Church has handed down, and which alone are true. To these things all the Asiatic churches testify, as do also those men who have succeeded Polycarp down to the present time" (ibid., 3:3:4).

"Since therefore we have such proofs, it is not necessary to seek the truth among others which it is easy to obtain from the Church; since the apostles, like a rich man [depositing his money] in a bank, lodged in her hands most copiously all things pertaining to the truth, so that every man, whosoever will, can draw from her the water of life. . . . For how stands the case? Suppose there arise a dispute relative to some important question among us, should we not have recourse to the most ancient churches with which the apostles held constant conversation, and learn from them what is certain and clear in regard to the present question?" (ibid., 3:4:1).

"[I]t is incumbent to obey the presbyters who are in the Church—those who, as I have shown, possess the succession from the apostles; those who, together with the succession of the episcopate, have received the infallible charism of truth, according to the good pleasure of the Father. But [it is also incumbent] to hold in suspicion others who depart from the primitive succession, and assemble themselves together in any place whatsoever, either as heretics of perverse minds, or as schismatics puffed up and self-pleasing, or again as hypocrites, acting thus for the sake of lucre and vainglory. For all these have fallen from the truth" (ibid., 4:26:2).

"The true knowledge is the doctrine of the apostles, and the ancient organization of the Church throughout the whole world, and the manifestation of the body of Christ according to the succession of bishops, by which succession the bishops have handed down the Church which is found everywhere" (ibid., 4:33:8).


[b]Tertullian[/b]

"[The apostles] founded churches in every city, from which all the other churches, one after another, derived the tradition of the faith, and the seeds of doctrine, and are every day deriving them, that they may become churches. Indeed, it is on this account only that they will be able to deem themselves apostolic, as being the offspring of apostolic churches. Every sort of thing must necessarily revert to its original for its classification. Therefore the churches, although they are so many and so great, comprise but the one primitive Church, [founded] by the apostles, from which they all [spring]. In this way, all are primitive, and all are apostolic, while they are all proved to be one in unity" (Demurrer Against the Heretics 20 [A.D. 200]).

"[W]hat it was which Christ revealed to them [the apostles] can, as I must here likewise prescribe, properly be proved in no other way than by those very churches which the apostles founded in person, by declaring the gospel to them directly themselves . . . If then these things are so, it is in the same degree manifest that all doctrine which agrees with the apostolic churches—those molds and original sources of the faith must be reckoned for truth, as undoubtedly containing that which the churches received from the apostles, the apostles from Christ, [and] Christ from God. Whereas all doctrine must be prejudged as false which savors of contrariety to the truth of the churches and apostles of Christ and God. It remains, then, that we demonstrate whether this doctrine of ours, of which we have now given the rule, has its origin in the tradition of the apostles, and whether all other doctrines do not ipso facto proceed from falsehood" (ibid., 21).

"But if there be any [heresies] which are bold enough to plant [their origin] in the midst of the apostolic age, that they may thereby seem to have been handed down by the apostles, because they existed in the time of the apostles, we can say: Let them produce the original records of their churches; let them unfold the roll of their bishops, running down in due succession from the beginning in such a manner that [their first] bishop shall be able to show for his ordainer and predecessor some one of the apostles or of apostolic men—a man, moreover, who continued steadfast with the apostles. For this is the manner in which the apostolic churches transmit their registers: as the church of Smyrna, which records that Polycarp was placed therein by John; as also the church of Rome, which makes Clement to have been ordained in like manner by Peter" (ibid., 32).

"But should they even effect the contrivance [of composing a succession list for themselves], they will not advance a step. For their very doctrine, after comparison with that of the apostles [as contained in other churches], will declare, by its own diversity and contrariety, that it had for its author neither an apostle nor an apostolic man; because, as the apostles would never have taught things which were self-contradictory" (ibid.).

"Then let all the heresies, when challenged to these two tests by our apostolic Church, offer their proof of how they deem themselves to be apostolic. But in truth they neither are so, nor are they able to prove themselves to be what they are not. Nor are they admitted to peaceful relations and communion by such churches as are in any way connected with apostles, inasmuch as they are in no sense themselves apostolic because of their diversity as to the mysteries of the faith" (ibid.).


[b]Cyprian of Carthage[/b]

"[T]he Church is one, and as she is one, cannot be both within and without. For if she is with [the heretic] Novatian, she was not with [Pope] Cornelius. But if she was with Cornelius, who succeeded the bishop [of Rome], Fabian, by lawful ordination, and whom, beside the honor of the priesthood the Lord glorified also with martyrdom, Novatian is not in the Church; nor can he be reckoned as a bishop, who, succeeding to no one, and despising the evangelical and apostolic tradition, sprang from himself. For he who has not been ordained in the Church can neither have nor hold to the Church in any way" (Letters 69[75]:3 [A.D. 253]).


[b]Jerome[/b]


"Far be it from me to speak adversely of any of these clergy who, in succession from the apostles, confect by their sacred word the Body of Christ and through whose efforts also it is that we are Christians" (Letters 14:8 [A.D. 396]).


[b]Augustine[/b]


"[T]here are many other things which most properly can keep me in [the Catholic Church’s] bosom. The unanimity of peoples and nations keeps me here. Her authority, inaugurated in miracles, nourished by hope, augmented by love, and confirmed by her age, keeps me here. The succession of priests, from the very see of the apostle Peter, to whom the Lord, after his resurrection, gave the charge of feeding his sheep [John 21:15–17], up to the present episcopate, keeps me here. And last, the very name Catholic, which, not without reason, belongs to this Church alone, in the face of so many heretics, so much so that, although all heretics want to be called ‘Catholic,’ when a stranger inquires where the Catholic Church meets, none of the heretics would dare to point out his own basilica or house" (Against the Letter of Mani Called "The Foundation" 4:5 [A.D. 397]).




[quote]Confess your sins in church. Yes. This doesn't mean 'Confess them to a priest' however. [/quote]

Yes it does. If you studied history instead of ignorant hate mongers, maybe you would be a smarter man.




[quote]Duh! Were not the Apostles the first Christians? Why should I trust the Fathers, since their words were not inspired by God?[/quote]

Why don't you trust Christ and His Apostles?

Real protestants even recognize the Early Church Fathers as the first Christians. You are not protestant, you are just angery at the Church for what reason, God only knows. You are only hurting yourself. Why not accept Christ and His Word, throught the Church that He left us?


[b]St. Matt 28:18 [/b] Then Jesus approached and said to them, "[color=red]All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me[/color].
[b]19 [/b][color=red]Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, [/color]
[b]20 [/b][color=red]teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age[/color]."


[b]John 14:16 [/b][color=red]And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate to be with you always, [/color]
[b]17 [/b][color=red]the Spirit of truth, which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it. But you know it, because it remains with you, and will be in you. [/color]
[b]18 [/b][color=red]I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.[/color]

[b]2 Timoty 3:14 [/b]
But you, remain faithful to what you have learned and believed, because you know from whom you learned it,

[b]2 Tim 2:2[/b]
And what you heard from me through many witnesses entrust to faithful people who will have the ability to teach others as well.


[b]Acts 8:27[/b]
So he got up and set out. Now there was an Ethiopian eunuch, a court official of the Candace, 8 that is, the queen of the Ethiopians, in charge of her entire treasury, who had come to Jerusalem to worship,
[b]28 [/b]and was returning home. Seated in his chariot, he was reading the prophet Isaiah.
[b]29 [/b]The Spirit said to Philip, "Go and join up with that chariot."
[b]30 [/b] Philip ran up and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet and said, "[b]Do you understand what you are reading?[/b]"
[b]31 [/b]He replied, "[b]How can I, unless someone instructs me?[/b]" So he invited Philip to get in and sit with him.


The Early Church Fathers are the trustworthy men appointed by the Apostles. That group started by the Apostles will NEVER be overcome, will be guided in all truth, is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth, and all who leave her are wrong to do so.



[b]Acts 20:29 [/b]
I know that after my departure savage wolves will come among you, and they will not spare the flock.
[b]30 [/b]And from your own group, men will come forward perverting the truth to draw the disciples away after them.


[b]1 John 2:18 [/b]
Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that the antichrist was coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. Thus we know this is the last hour.
[b]19 [/b]They went out from us, but they were not really of our number; if they had been, they would have remained with us. Their desertion shows that none of them was of our number.
[b]20 [/b]But you have the anointing that comes from the holy one, and you all have knowledge.
[b]21 [/b]I write to you not because you do not know the truth but because you do, and because every lie is alien to the truth.




[quote]You quoted Scripture about 'supporting the law'

You had quoted Romans 3:29-31 to support your doctrines that man is justified by both faith and works. Yet in the next chapter, St. Paul explicitly says that a man is justified by faith and not by works of the law. You'd have to be pretty creative in order to come up with works that were outside the Law, since Jesus Himself said that the summary of the Law is to love your neighbor as yourself, and the Lord your God with all your mind, soul, and strength!

As for your quoting Romans 6, of course we beleive that we must avoid sin! By the regeneration of the Holy Spirit which is given by grace alone, through faith alone, we are made dead to sin and alive in Christ. Of course if we love Him, we will obey His commandments!

Of course those who are given much are expected to do much! [/quote]


It's sad how you brush off the quotes from Christ. About how works are important.

If works are not needed for justification, then how can it be that St. Paul stated their end will correspond to their deeds.


Or about Christ statements that we must do good works in

St. Matt 25:31
"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne,
32 and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
33 He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me,
36 naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.'
37 Then the righteous will answer him and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?
38 When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?
39 When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?'
40 And the king will say to them in reply, 'Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.'
41 Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
43 a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.'
44 Then they will answer and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?'
45 He will answer them, 'Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.'
46 And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."



[b]St. James 2:20[/b] Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?


What you have brought just doesn't add up. How can you say you believe something cannot be defended when looking at the whole bible?


How can you follow the ways of men from 1517 AD instead of the way of Christ from 33 AD?



-ironmonk

[M.SIGGA]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Jul 31 2004, 04:53 PM'] I don't see how this song is compatible with Catholicism, since she teaches that you must do good works (ie penance) to expunge your sins. [/quote]
I know it's not. I was a kid and I just sang what the choir master told me too. I don't think the average primary school child totally understands or really cares about theological arguments; I knew Jesus and the Pope and the Saints and how to pray and that's about it. I probably thought it was just another church song.

[quote]What is the (Calvinist i'm guessing?) teaching that someone knows absolutly sure, without a doubt, that they are the Elect, whose sins are already atoned for, instead of the damned? If you're talking fundamentalism, isn't there a specific number like 144,000 or something like that?[/quote]

Can you answer this; I really haven't a clue about Calvinism other than they are the predestination people