What Is This All About?!

[PedroX]

Dusty,

Al's latin roughly says "Apotheoun has spoken, case is finished"

I also recommend that you read the decree in its fullness and then re-read the canons that seem to be giving you trouble. No where does the church deny that salvation is by the grace of God. In fact, this is what the Reformers were saying. By saying that salvation exists through faith alone (sola fides) they were teaching that salvation started with us. For, the emphasis shifts from God's grace to our faith. If Luther, et al could have stayed with Sola Gratia we might have avoided this whole mess.

Icthus,

I understand you are not Catholic, but that doesn't give you the right to be rude. Please avoid using words like "perversion" to describe the church's teaching. Martin Luther said "one cannot have God as their father without haveing the Church as their mother." I for one don't like anyone calling my mother a pervert.

peace...

[MichaelFilo]

Todd has a certain authority about him, and the super classy avatar that can be found on the Vatican's website makes him seem very professional.

God bless,

Mikey

[cappie]

The Vatican Website has a number of articles about the joint declaration with the Lutheran Federation about Justification
[url="http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/sub-index/index_lutheran-fed.htm"]The Holy See[/url]

[Dusty Fro]

A classy icon does not a genius make.

[Aloysius]

no, but beautifully written intelligent posts DO a genius make.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='Dusty Fro' date='Aug 1 2004, 05:52 AM'] Sounds to be like they're degrading the value of God's grace. I think it's purely reactionary, and definitely not commissioned by God. [/quote]
You are taking things out of context.

Here is a link, there is a lot to the Council of Trent... Read it all if you really want to understand it.


[url="http://www.catholic-pages.com/dir/trent.asp"]http://www.catholic-pages.com/dir/trent.asp[/url]


It does not degrade the value of God's grace.


God Bless,
ironmonk

[ironmonk]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Aug 1 2004, 04:17 PM'] My sentiments exactly. This is exactly why the [url="http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/indexf.html"]Westminster Confession of Faith[/url] was formulated, to combat Rome's perversion of the Holy Gospel. [/quote]
How is something from the group established by Christ a perversion when Christ said it would NEVER be overcome. The perversion then would be Westminster. They left the group. They are Acts 20:29-30

"Perversion" is deviating from what is considered right and correct. The Church has always been right and correct as Christ promised. The group established by Christ will never be perverted in it's teaching. I believe Christ, I wish others did as well.


You would have different sentiments if you actually studied it.

Edited August 2, 2004 by ironmonk

[ironmonk]

[quote]Canon 9. If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone, meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification...let him be anathema. (excommunicated)

Canon 11. If anyone says that men are justified either by the sole imputation of the righteousness of Christ or by the sole remission of sins, to the exclusion of the grace and charity which is poured forth in their hearts by the Holy Ghost and remains in them, or also that the grace by which we are justified is only the good will of God, let him be anathema.

Canon 12.If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in divine mercy, which remits sins for Christ's sake, or that it is this confidence alone that justifies us, let him be anathema.[/quote]

[b]St. Matt 16:27[/b] [color=red]For the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Father's glory, and then he will repay everyone according to his conduct. [/color]

[b]2 Corin 11:15 [/b]
So it is not strange that his ministers also masquerade as ministers of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.

[b]St. Matt 10:22[/b]
[color=red]You will be hated by all because of my name, but whoever endures to the end will be saved.[/color]

[b]St. Matt 24:13 [/b]
[color=red]But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved. [/color]

[b]James 2:20 [/b]Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?





[quote]Canon 24. If anyone says that the righteousness received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works, but that those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the cause of the increase, let him be anathema.[/quote]

[b]1 Corin 3:12[/b]
If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw,
[b]13 [/b]the work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire (itself) will test the quality of each one's work.
[b]14 [/b]If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage.
[b]15 [/b]But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, 8 but only as through fire.


[b]St. Matt 6:19[/b]
"[color=red]Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and decay destroy, and thieves break in and steal. [/color]
[b]20 [/b][color=red]But store up treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor decay destroys, nor thieves break in and steal.[/color]

If we can store up treasures in heaven, then this Canon is correct.

[b]St. Luke 6:23[/b]
[color=red]Rejoice and leap for joy on that day! Behold, your reward will be great in heaven. For their ancestors treated the prophets in the same way.[/color]

Rewards in heaven will vary. Some will have more, some will have less. This canon holds true, as all of them do.


[quote]Canon 30. If anyone says that after the reception of the grace of justification the guilt is so remitted and the debt of eternal punishment so blotted out to every repentant sinner, that no debt of temporal punishment remains to be discharged either in this world or in purgatory before the gates of heaven can be opened, let him be anathema.[/quote]


[b]1 John 5:16 [/b]
If anyone sees his brother sinning, [b]if the sin is not deadly[/b], he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray.

[b]Rev 21:27 [/b]
but nothing unclean will enter it, nor any (one) who does abominable things or tells lies. Only those will enter whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.


Nothing Unclean can enter Heaven, but not all sin is deadly (1 John 5:16) therefore we must have our sin purged (Isaiah 6:6-7) before we enter Heaven if we are guilty of lesser sins.


Again, this canon holds true.


A few other canons [url="http://history.hanover.edu/early/trent/ct06jc.htm"]http://history.hanover.edu/early/trent/ct06jc.htm[/url] :

CANON XIX.-If any one saith, that nothing besides faith is commanded in the Gospel; that other things are indifferent, neither commanded nor prohibited, but free; or, that the ten commandments nowise appertain to Christians; let him be anathema.

CANON XX.-If any one saith, that the man who is justified and how perfect soever, is not bound to observe the commandments of God and of the Church, but only to believe; as if indeed the Gospel were a bare and absolute promise of eternal life, without the condition of observing the commandments ; let him be anathema.

CANON XXI.-If any one saith, that Christ Jesus was given of God to men, as a redeemer in whom to trust, and not also as a legislator whom to obey; let him be anathema.

[b]St. John 14:15 [/b]
"[color=red]If you love me, you will keep my commandments.[/color]


CANON XXIII.-lf any one saith, that a man once justified can sin no more, nor lose grace, and that therefore he that falls and sins was never truly justified; or, on the other hand, that he is able, during his whole life, to avoid all sins, even those that are venial,-except by a special privilege from God, as the Church holds in regard of the Blessed Virgin; let him be anathema.


[b]St. Matt 13:19 [/b]
[color=red]The seed sown on the path is the one who hears the word of the kingdom without understanding it, and the evil one comes and steals away what was sown in his heart.[/color]
[b]20 [/b][color=red]The seed sown on rocky ground is the one who hears the word and receives it at once with joy. [/color]
[b]21 [/b][color=red]But he has no root and lasts only for a time. When some tribulation or persecution comes because of the word, he immediately falls away. [/color]
[b]22 [/b][color=red]The seed sown among thorns is the one who hears the word, but then worldly anxiety and the lure of riches choke the word and it bears no fruit.[/color]
[b]23 [/b][color=red]But the seed sown on rich soil is the one who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and yields a hundred or sixty or thirtyfold[/color]."


[b]Romans 11:22[/b] "See then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off"

[b]Hebrews 10:26[/b]
If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins 27 but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.
[b]28 [/b]Anyone who rejects the law of Moses is put to death without pity on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
[b]29 [/b]Do you not think that a much worse punishment is due the one who has contempt for the Son of God, considers unclean the covenant-blood by which he was consecrated, and insults the spirit of grace?

[b]2 Peter 2:20[/b]
For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of (our) Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.
[b]21 [/b]For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.
[b]22 [/b]What is expressed in the true proverb has happened to them, "The dog returns to its own vomit," and "A bathed sow returns to wallowing in the mire."




God Bless,
ironmonk

[Broccolifish]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Aug 1 2004, 02:35 PM'] Apotheoun, I've heard the term 'theological nominalism' bounced around quite a bit.

Could you explain what you mean by it, please? [/quote]
It's supposed to be a "dirty word," ICTHUS. Nominalism was a prevailing metaphysic in the Middle Ages that reduced all universals simply to naming conventions; that is, there were no true universals but only particulars which are categorized by people who name them. This was an attempt to solve the problem of universals, but it really only translated it from the realm of matter to the realm of thought. Instead of assigning [i]things[/i] to categories, we now must ask how we account for categorizing [i]thoughts[/i] according to universals in thought. After all, the nominalist may claim that there are no universals, but he relies on them in every act, presuming "types" of events and "types" of things. A "man" is considered different than a "woman" because of a universal [i]idea[/i], even if there is no realm of forms like Plato envisioned, where "manness" resides. I believe that William of Ockham (famous for his phrasing of the principle of Parsimony, popularly called "Ockham's Razor") was an important philosopher of this school.

To accuse the Reformers of Theological Nominalism is to misunderstand both what they taught and what nominalism claimed. Martin Luther was, to be sure, a nominalist in at least some way. Apotheoun is not making any new claim. In fact, by rejecting the Platonic and Aristotelian answers to the problem of Universals, it would be difficult to classify Luther as anything [i]but[/i] a nominalist. However, how Apotheoun [i]defines[/i] "theological nominalism" shows linguistic revision. He has also misunderstood the Reformation phrase [i]simul iustus et peccator[/i], which does not intend to say that we are completely sinful and completely justified at the same time; rather, it means that we are simultaneously justified and [i]still sinners[/i]. To quote the Heidelberg Disputation, 1518:

[i]The Law says, 'Do this,' and it is never done; the Gospel says, 'Believe this,' and everything is already done.[/i]

The work of salvation, justification and sanctification both, is accomplished. It is worked in Christ. Those who are being saved [i]will[/i] be saved, and His Will will not be frustrated. Christ's death works in two ways for the believer: First, he is [i]declared righteous in spite of his sin[/i]. Second, [i]he is made righteous[/i] by the work of the Holy Spirit in sanctification. The Reformed doctrines of grace do not allow for Apotheoun's accusation of Nominalism, however, because the sinner, when regenerated, [b]is[/b] a [i]new[/i] creation; the Holy Spirit within him, he is not the sinner he was, sin though he still may. He is now a saint, righteous by Christ's work. It should be seen that what Apotheoun accuses the Reformers of is really nothing more than G.K. Chesterton calling Calvinism "The New Manichaeism." That is, it's hogwash.

[PedroX]

Brocolli,

If you are indeed positing a real perspective of the reformers and their teachings, how do you square your definition of the nature of man with the doctrine of total depravity? (especially as deliniated by J. Calvin)

peace...

[Guest JeffCR07]

[quote]A classy icon does not a genius make.[/quote]

Dusty, your premise is inherently flawed. Einstein was a genius. Einstein would make a classy icon. The only logical conclusion is that "a classy icon [i]does[/i] a genius make."


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lol

[MorphRC]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Aug 1 2004, 11:32 PM'] lol. Once Todd posts on a thread I feel [i]almost[/i] like Rome has spoken and nothing is left to say on the issue. [/quote]
Lol.

Hes a good apologetist....guy....brother...

[Broccolifish]

[quote name='PedroX' date='Aug 3 2004, 10:37 PM'] Brocolli,

If you are indeed positing a real perspective of the reformers and their teachings, how do you square your definition of the nature of man with the doctrine of total depravity? (especially as deliniated by J. Calvin)

peace... [/quote]
I believe in the doctrines of grace as espoused by John Calvin and St. Augustine, as incompletely espoused by Martin Luther and the rest of the Reformers.

Total Depravity is a biblical truth, and in no way conflicts with what I have said about the nature of man. I don't understand how you would get that impression.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Broccolifish' date='Aug 4 2004, 08:30 AM'] I believe in the doctrines of grace as espoused by John Calvin and St. Augustine, as incompletely espoused by Martin Luther and the rest of the Reformers.

Total Depravity is a biblical truth, and in no way conflicts with what I have said about the nature of man. I don't understand how you would get that impression. [/quote]
I believe the doctrines of grace espoused by Scripture and Tradition, which includes all the Fathers of the Church, and not simply St. Augustine.

Nowhere in Scripture does the term "total depravity" appear to describe man's condition after the fall from grace in the Garden of Eden.

[God Conquers]

[quote]Martin Luther said "one cannot have God as their father without haveing the Church as their mother." I for one don't like anyone calling my mother a pervert.[/quote]

Pedro, St. Cyprian said the above quote... although it is possible Martin Luther quoted or stole from St. Cyprian.

[PedroX]

Brocolli,

You described the nature of man as simultaneously justified and sinful. This doesn't appear to square with the supposed doctrine of total depravity. Can you show me how you make this fit?

G. Conquers,

M. Luther must have stolen it then. I have the source at home, but alas am stuck at the office now. Good work on tracking down the original.

peace...

[CatholicCrusader]

[quote name='JeffCR07' date='Aug 4 2004, 08:18 AM']
Dusty, your premise is inherently flawed. Einstein was a genius. Einstein would make a classy icon. The only logical conclusion is that "a classy icon [i]does[/i] a genius make."


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lol  [/quote]
He obviously wasn't TOO smart, if he couldn't even see the pre-figurement of Christ [color=red]edited[/color]

Edited August 4, 2004 by cmotherofpirl

[Paladin D]

IQ does not determine one's acceptance and faith in Christ. If that were so, many of us would not be followers today.

[Broccolifish]

[quote]I believe the doctrines of grace espoused by Scripture and Tradition, which includes all the Fathers of the Church, and not simply St. Augustine.[/quote]
The Fathers contradict one another, themselves, and the Scriptures at various points. Augustine, Calvin, and Luther provide a more Scriptural testimony to the plan for salvation than the Roman Catholic faith, which is really not the Christian Gospel at all.

[quote]Nowhere in Scripture does the term "total depravity" appear to describe man's condition after the fall from grace in the Garden of Eden.[/quote]
Irrelevant. The word "Trinity" does not appear in the Scriptures either. Total Depravity is a convenient shorthand for the Biblical declaration of man's condition.

[color=blue]Jeremiah 13:23
23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard his spots? Then you also can do good who are accustomed to doing evil.

Job 14:4
4 Who can make the clean out of the unclean? No one!

Job 15:14-16
14 "What is man, that he should be pure, or he who is born of a woman, that he should be righteous?
15 "Behold, He puts no trust in His holy ones, and the heavens are not pure in His sight;
16 How much less one who is detestable and corrupt, Man, who drinks iniquity like water!

Ecclesiastes 9:3
3 This is an evil in all that is done under the sun, that there is one fate for all men. Furthermore, the hearts of the sons of men are full of evil and insanity is in their hearts throughout their lives. Afterwards they go to the dead.

Psalms 51:5
5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me.

Isaiah 64:6
6 For all of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; and all of us wither like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.

Matthew 12:33
33 Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for the tree is known by its fruit.

John 3:19-21
19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.
20 For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
21 But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.

John 6:44
44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.”

John 6:53
53 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.”

John 6:65
65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

John 8:47
47 "He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God."

John 10:26
26 "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.

Acts 13:41
41 “Behold, you scoffers, and marvel, and perish; for I am accomplishing a work in your days, a work which you will never believe, though someone should describe it to you.”

Acts 28:27
27 “’For the heart of this people has become dull, and with their ears they scarcely hear, and they have closed their eyes; otherwise they might see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understanding with their heart and return, and I would heal them.'”

Romans 3:10-12
10 as it is written, "There is none righteous, not even one;
11 there is none who understands, there is none who seeks for God;
12 all have turned aside, together they have become useless; there is none who does good, there is not even one.”

Romans 5:12
12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned

Romans 8:7-9
7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

1 Corinthians 2:14
14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

2 Corinthians 4:4
4 In whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Ephesians 2:1-5
1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)

Ephesians 2:12
12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

Colossians 2:13
13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,

Titus 1:15
15 To the pure, all things are pure; but to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure, but both their mind and their conscience are defiled.

Titus 3:3
3 For we also once were foolish ourselves, disobedient, deceived, enslaved to various lusts and pleasures, spending our life in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another.[/color]

[Guest JeffCR07]

Not a single one of these quotes disprove the Catholic understanding of Original Sin and Concupiscience, nor the nature of Man as taught by the Holy Magisterium.

However, the notion of Total Depravity, that man is incapable of being good, has a much harder time dealing with passages such as these in which God finds men to be good.

[quote]The LORD then said to Noah, "Go into the ark, you and your whole family, because I have found you righteous in this generation (Genesis: 7:1)[/quote]