What Is Necesssary For Salvation?

[ICTHUS]

Okay, I'm returning this thread to the amniotic fluid discussion.

Phatcatholic, your demonstration of the Greek doesn't prove anything, the word 'hudatos' could be used metaphorically, just like saying 'the moon was a pizza' doesn't change the meaning of the word 'pizza', it only makes a comparison of the moon to a pizza without using the terms 'like' or 'as'

[carrdero]

Salvation comes from within the individual who desires to be saved. Nobody can validate salvation for you. This is called responsibility. If it was that easy and everyone was giving it to so freely it would put the focus off of the Being who desires to BE saved.

[Aloysius]

oh brother, pelagianism

Pelagius lived at Kardanoel
And taught a doctrine there
How, whether you went to heaven or to hell
It was your own affair.
It had nothing to do with the Church, my boy,
But was your own affair.

No, he didn't believe
In Adam and Eve
He put no faith therein!
His doubts began
With the Fall of Man
And he laughed at Original Sin.
With my row-ti-tow
Ti-oodly-ow
He laughed at original sin.

Then came the bishop of old Auxerre
Germanus was his name
He tore great handfuls out of his hair
And he called Pelagius shame.
And with his stout Episcopal staff
So thoroughly whacked and banged
The heretics all, both short and tall --
They rather had been hanged.

Oh he whacked them hard, and he banged them long
Upon each and all occasions
Till they bellowed in chorus, loud and strong
Their orthodox persuasions.
With my row-ti-tow
Ti-oodly-ow
Their orthodox persuasions.

Now the faith is old and the Devil bold
Exceedingly bold indeed.
And the masses of doubt that are floating about
Would smother a mortal creed.
But we that sit in a sturdy youth
And still can drink strong ale
Let us put it away to infallible truth
That always shall prevail.

And thank the Lord
For the temporal sword
And howling heretics too.
And all good things
Our Christendom brings
But especially barley brew!
With my row-ti-tow
Ti-oodly-ow
Especially barley brew!

-- Hillaire Belloc

Salvation comes from God, not from within yourself. God works through His Church.

[CatholicCrusader]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Aug 2 2004, 04:08 PM'] change the question to "what is [i][b]normatively [/b][/i]necessary" and i choose the first option [/quote]
OK, I'll bring this back to its actual purpose... what would you say if the question is posed as is--what is necessary, period, not the norm. Of course, I would expect a reason for what it is you believe, which, I'm sure you would have supplied anyway.

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Aug 4 2004, 07:11 PM'] Okay, I'm returning this thread to the amniotic fluid discussion.

Phatcatholic, your demonstration of the Greek doesn't prove anything, the word 'hudatos' could be used metaphorically, just like saying 'the moon was a pizza' doesn't change the meaning of the word 'pizza', it only makes a comparison of the moon to a pizza without using the terms 'like' or 'as' [/quote]
icthus,

before i comment, i just want to say that it truly saddens me to debate this topic w/ you, considering that only weeks ago we were in communion w/ each other and were the truest of brothers in Christ. how could you possibly take this to mean "amniotic fluid" when for so long in your life you were convicted that John was referring to the waters of baptism? search you heart and ask yourself honestly why you have really adopted this new interpretation. could it be that you are now doing everything possible to reject your old faith--even accepting rather illogical conclusions--so as to validate w/in yourself this recent change of heart? this is not a good reason to intepret Scripture in such a way, and it pains me to see you engaging in this exercise.

that said, your example "the moon was a pizza" is not metaphorical language. the words "like" or "as" must be used. w/o these words, you are stating that something IS something else, instead of saying that it is similar to something else.

secondly, John 3:5 does not employ metaphorical language either:

--Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

where is it even implied here that the water is meant to be a metaphor for something else? also, your contention is that the water here IS amniotic fluid, not that it is a metaphor for amniotic fluid, so this whole talk of metaphor is rather out of place.

so, since we are speaking of what the water in fact is, we are resigned to the definitions of the greek for water in order to determine what the greek is in fact referring to. none of the definitions for "hudor"--the transliteration of the Greek used for "water" in John 3:5--denote amniotic fluid as a possible intention of the word. here are the definitions of hudor:

1. water[list]
[*]a. of water in rivers, in fountains, in pools
b. of the water of the deluge
c. of water in any of the earth's repositories
d. of water as the primary element, out of and through which the world that was before the deluge, arose and was compacted
e. of the waves of the sea
f. fig. used of many peoples
[/list]you simply cannot escape the Greek of this passage, bro.

pax christi,
phatcatholic

Edited August 5, 2004 by phatcatholic

[MorphRC]

whatever the church says.

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='CatholicCrusader' date='Aug 4 2004, 09:21 PM'] OK, I'll bring this back to its actual purpose... what would you say if the question is posed as is--what is necessary, period, not the norm. Of course, I would expect a reason for what it is you believe, which, I'm sure you would have supplied anyway. [/quote]
since there are members of other faiths engaged in this topic, i am not inclined to partake in catholic vs. catholic debate, which the phishies in this thread seem willing to instigate.

[MorphRC]

Evil

[Aloysius]

[MorphRC]

[carrdero]

Edited August 5, 2004 by carrdero

[MorphRC]

[phatcatholic]

how should i interpret all these faces?

[MorphRC]

With Wisdom Young Padawin.

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Aug 4 2004, 09:50 PM'] oh brother, pelagianism

Pelagius lived at Kardanoel
And taught a doctrine there
How, whether you went to heaven or to hell
It was your own affair.
It had nothing to do with the Church, my boy,
But was your own affair.

No, he didn't believe
In Adam and Eve
He put no faith therein!
His doubts began
With the Fall of Man
And he laughed at Original Sin.
With my row-ti-tow
Ti-oodly-ow
He laughed at original sin.

Then came the bishop of old Auxerre
Germanus was his name
He tore great handfuls out of his hair
And he called Pelagius shame.
And with his stout Episcopal staff
So thoroughly whacked and banged
The heretics all, both short and tall --
They rather had been hanged.

Oh he whacked them hard, and he banged them long
Upon each and all occasions
Till they bellowed in chorus, loud and strong
Their orthodox persuasions.
With my row-ti-tow
Ti-oodly-ow
Their orthodox persuasions.

Now the faith is old and the Devil bold
Exceedingly bold indeed.
And the masses of doubt that are floating about
Would smother a mortal creed.
But we that sit in a sturdy youth
And still can drink strong ale
Let us put it away to infallible truth
That always shall prevail.

And thank the Lord
For the temporal sword
And howling heretics too.
And all good things
Our Christendom brings
But especially barley brew!
With my row-ti-tow
Ti-oodly-ow
Especially barley brew!

-- Hillaire Belloc

Salvation comes from God, not from within yourself. God works through His Church. [/quote]
I love Belloc.

[MorphRC]

I love Bellocs stuff on Islam

[White Knight]

I think having a One on One Personal Relationship with Jesus Christ, is the necesssary key issue of obtaining Salvation. Accepting him as "Lord and Savior" is whats necesssary for Salvation.
[b]Mark 1:15 "Repent and believe the Good News!"[/b]

[b]Romans 10:9-10 "That if you confess with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,' and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, YOU WILL BE SAVED. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved."[/b]


[b]Ephesians 2:8-9 "For it is by the grace you have been saved, through faith - and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast."[/b]



Confessing that your a sinner to Jesus and asking for forgiveness, Basically saying the "Sinners Prayer"


I believe a dying man can be saved and obtain salvation and go to Heaven....... look at the guy on the cross next to Jesus....

[b]Luke 24: 37-43 "and saying, if thou be the king of the Jews, save thyself. And a superscription also was written over him in letters of Greek and Latin, and Hebrew, THIS KING OF THE JEWS. And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him saing 'If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.' But the other answering rebuked him, saying ' Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemption? And we indeed justly; for what we recieve the due reward of our deeds, but this man hath done nothing amiss. And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.' And Jesus said unto him, 'Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.'[/b]


Thats a confession of a dying man on the cross next to Jesus, who most likely never got Baptisted, He was dying, he confess that he did wrong, in front of Jesus, he confessed that Jesus was innocent, He confessed he deserved to die for what he did, and Jesus said what I stated up there to him.

Edited August 7, 2004 by White Knight