Are We In A Just War?

[MorphRC]

You purposely trying to get me banned eh?

[Apotheoun]

The following is from the USCCB's 19 March 2003 statement on the Iraq war: "[i]The role of conscience[/i]. While we have warned of the potential moral dangers of embarking on this war, we have also been clear that there are no easy answers. War has serious consequences, so could the failure to act. People of good will may and do disagree on how to interpret just war teaching and how to apply just war norms to the controverted facts of this case. We understand and respect the difficult moral choices that must be made by our President and others who bear the responsibility of making these grave decisions involving our nation's and the world's security (Catechism #2309). We affirm the words of the Catechism: "[t]hose who are sworn to serve their country in the armed forces are servants of the security and freedom of nations. If they carry out their duty honorably, they truly contribute to the common good of the nation and the maintenance of peace" (#2310). We also affirm that "[p]ublic authorities should make equitable provision for those who for reasons of conscience refuse to bear arms" (#2311). We support those who have accepted the call to serve their country in a conscientious way in the armed services and we reiterate our long-standing support for those who pursue conscientious objection and selective conscientious objection." [USCCB [u]Statement on War with Iraq[/u], March 19, 2003]

You will notice that in the Bishops statement they nowhere call the war with Iraq intrinsically immoral or unjust.

[url="http://www.usccb.org/sdwp/peace/stm31903.htm"]http://www.usccb.org/sdwp/peace/stm31903.htm[/url]

Edited August 4, 2004 by Apotheoun

[MorphRC]

[quote]People of good will may and do disagree on how to interpret just war teaching and how to apply just war norms to the controverted facts of this case.[/quote]

The same facts that turned out to be utter lies.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='MorphRC' date='Aug 4 2004, 12:52 AM'] You purposely trying to get me banned eh? [/quote]
Although I said I would not respond to your posts on this topic, I will respond to this one. No, I am not trying to get you banned. What I am trying to do, is to get you to be civil, and not resort to [i]ad hominem[/i] attacks. That kind of argumentation makes you appear small minded, and I know that that isn't the case, because I have respect for you as a person. I will say this, I normally enjoy reading your posts, and find them informative. But my main point is this, we should treat everyone, even those we don't agree with, with charity and respect. Calling the President names solves nothing. I was not pleased when President Clinton was in office, but I refused to call him names, because name calling solves nothing. Certainly, I disagreed with the majority of his positions, especially on moral issues, and I didn't refrain from speaking about my disagreement with him very forthrightly, but I didn't resort to [i]ad hominem[/i] attacks against him. I don't think people should be calling President Bush names, nor do I think people should be calling John Kerry names, nor anyone else. What good is name calling?

But as I said, I don't want you banned, and in fact I normally agree with your posts and find them insightful. On this particular topic we clearly don't agree, but we don't have to hold the same position on this topic, because I agree with what Cardinal Ratzinger said, "There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia." [Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, [u]Letter to the US Bishops on Communion[/u], no. 3] I believe that the war in Iraq is just, and I have stated my reasons for holding that position, but I don't expect everyone at Phatmass to necessarily agree with me, the only thing I desire is that people inform their conscience on this issue.

God bless,
Todd

Edited August 4, 2004 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

MorphRC,

If I have said anything that has personally offended you, I apologize.

God bless,
Todd

[MorphRC]

Ok Bro. I got no problem with that. Also my position isnt what some would call a 'Michael Moore' position. Ive seen over 5 documentaries on these subjects, ranging from Bush's connection to Christian Zionists to him and his friends that have connections with Saudi CEO's, mainly oil, but also arms dealing. Ive read a few books, and even though i never claim to be an expert on such a topic, the evidence given by FBI, NSA, CIA directors and agents is so overwhelming that believing anything contrary seems out of it.

Also with the ad hominem attacks, from the experience of people here and my self, that is used to try and disapprove the person since the arguement couldnt be, but I understand where your are coming from and the Christian side, which Ill try to respect and practice.

[MorphRC]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Aug 4 2004, 06:58 PM'] MorphRC,

If I have said anything that has personally offended you, I apologize.

God bless,
Todd [/quote]
Same here Bro :peace:

[Paladin D]

I would not label President Bush as a terrorist. I believe he's a honest man, where unfortunately many politicans these days have hidden agendas. But who knows? I'm just following my conscience.

I don't care if a politican is republican or democrat, just as long as he doesn't supprt Abortion, Homosexual Marriage, Euthanisa, Fetal Stem Cell Research, and Human Cloning.

I believe the war could've been handled better in some areas, but overall I believe the war was just on the basis of freeing Iraq from a horrible dictator, and his loose ties with terrorist groups. However, with the intelligence President Bush had at that time, he made the decision to go to war. Can't blame him for faulty intelligence.

[MorphRC]

[quote]and his loose ties with terrorist groups. [/quote]

Thats been accepted as false now. And infact [quote]Can't blame him for faulty intelligence.[/quote] that part isnt any better.

Im off to bed, long day.

[Aloysius]

no, that hasn't been accepted as false. the 9.11 commission found that there was no direct help from Saddam Hussein in the planning of the 9.11 attacks, however Saddam and Al Quaida WERE in cooperation.

[Aloysius]

also: the faulty intelligence: one does not lie when they speak what they believe to be true at the time. it is only when they purposely speak against the truth.

[Paladin D]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Aug 4 2004, 01:57 PM'] also: the faulty intelligence: one does not lie when they speak what they believe to be true at the time. it is only when they purposely speak against the truth. [/quote]
Word.

[b]Morph[/b], if you were informed by highly credible intelligence personal that said to you [b]"Your neighbor is planning to kill you, you need to defend yourself"[/b]. Not to mention them providing some convincing looking evidence of such a plot, what would you do?

I highly doubt President Bush was twirling his thumbs in the oval office, thinking of some mischievous plan of world domination for the state of Texas (I mean the United States). Come on now...

[White Knight]

[quote name='MorphRC' date='Aug 4 2004, 01:13 AM'] I dont hate America. I despise the Administration!

[color=red][Edited by dUSt: Personal Attack][/color]

And in typical bush-style. Blame everyone else but yourselves.



Yeah. Im not the one going to war over Oil, land and US Bases positions, Im not the one that totally ignores International Law and the Geneva convention, Im not the one that passes amendments 8am in the morning, when all the senators are to tired to read em, and end up passing a law that restricts civil liberties, Im not the one that supports South American Governments that have been known for violations against humanity, Im not the one that sits on my butt, and lets 30,000 africans die a day, Im not the one that wastes billions of dollars a day on Iraq, when OXfam Intn, WorldCare and every other charity in Africa are dying on their feet trying to save lives, [b]IM NOT THE ONE THAT 'ACCIDENTLY' DROPS BOMBS 10 MILES OFF THEIR TARGET KILLING WHOLE FAMILIES![/b] [/quote]


Why do you dispise an Administration that is trying to fix Clinton's Administration Damage, you sould know this is mainly his fault, why were in this War of Terror. For not doing a thing about it when he had the chance during his 8 years of his presidency its Always the previous administrations aftermath's that show up during the current ones, only reason why Clinton looked good is because he rode off the hard working administrations of Reagan and Senior Bush. Clinton's bad is now appearing before the Current Bush Administration, and Bush's Administration is doing its hardest to fix Clintons bad, and Anti War people and Bush haters are not helping America out.

We didn't go to war for oil dude, that wasn't our objective at all not this time, Land and U.S. Base Postitions, could be better, so yes that was helpful and legal.


Excuse me man, if the World tells you you can't defend yourself in a Life or Death Fight, are you going to listen? I think not, I would defend myself at all costs, reguardless of what the world thinks about it. and thats what Bush's Administration is doing now, and it "IS JUST" to defend yourself in battle.

Yes, its a terrible thing that people of all nations that are effected by this World Wide War, losing their famlies, and such. but thats war, yes were sorry they lost their famlies and such, but its war dude.

WAR: Technology of War changes over time, results of that technology devolopment will never change, War kills people.

There will always be death in war, from Alexander the Great to Adolf Hilter to Saddam Hussian there has obiviously been death in their warfare campains same goes with today.

Edited August 4, 2004 by White Knight

[littleflower+JMJ]

this thread has failed to be productive......


pray for world peace.

+JMJ+