Identifying The One True God

[carrdero]

I apologize for not responding to your querstion Tora-Musume. I will respond when I come back from my journey.

[Tora-Musume]

[quote name='MichaelFilo' date='Aug 8 2004, 03:16 PM'] I think every single person who answered this thread outside of carderro have said the same thing. We are born with sin, and until we are baptized, we have original sin on ours souls. This gets cleansed when we are baptized. However, you keep telling us about your friend, but we have all unanimously said the same thing. I am faily sure someone misunderstood the teaching. This is a very basic doctrine. We have given you what the Church teaches.

God bless,

Mikey [/quote]
It was not only my friends daughter I am asking this for. It is also for me. Comming from a Catholic family and going to church, it makes you wonder again, why 2 beliefs are being taught. (Please scroll up.) Since this is being said as a misunderstanding or a wolf in a sheeps clothing (in a church?) I will have to say, Moving On!

Gotta Love Me!

[MichaelFilo]

A wolf in sheeps clothing is, someone who impersonates being good, but is spreading lies. I'd think the best place to find one would be in a Church.

I grew up thinking everyone in a Church is good and holy. Be careful, most are good, not all.

God bless,

Mikey

[Aloysius]

duh, the Bible said there would be ppl who try to lead people out of the One True Faith by teaching false doctrines. But THE CHURCH doesn't teach false doctrines, people could be within the Church and teach something contrary to CHURCH TEACHING. CHURCH TEACHING is true.

I seriously have no idea how this is so hard to understand, though. No one ever claimed that everyone in the Church is perfect, just that the Church Herself is perfect.

Anyway, we are born stained with original sin. We OURSElVES have not COMMITTED any sin when we are born, maybe that's what you were told and you misunderstood, but we are stained with ADAM's SIN and at baptism that is cleansed off of our soul and we are made sons of God.

[Tora-Musume]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Aug 8 2004, 03:46 PM']
I seriously have no idea how this is so hard to understand, though. No one ever claimed that everyone in the Church is perfect, just that the Church Herself is perfect.

[/quote]
I know that I said that I was moving on, but I am back. Are you implying that I have lack of good sence? If you are being taught in a Catholic church of one teaching and then come to find out that that teaching is all wrong, what would you think? The ppl in the Church is suppose to teach you the true doctrine, not the false. I am talking about the Catholic Church. I am not talking about any other church cause I have only been to a Catholic Church. I grew up in a Catholic Church until I have come to realize that there are some really misinterpreted teachings in the Church itself. (Cause as you have stated, that there are ppl who will try to lead ppl out of the One True Faith by teaching false doctrines.) It is just a question of why would a Church teach you one thing (from a wolf in sheeps clothing) and then teach you another. (I already know about the being born with sin). And I would really appreciate it if you can eliminate the ironical taunt. [quote]duh, the Bible said there would be ppl who try to lead people out of the One True Faith by teaching false doctrines.[/quote] I am hear to learn of the teachings and to be able to understand. Thank you!

Gotta Love Me!

[MichaelFilo]

She's right. Tora, you'd be in a good position however to listen to what the people here on Phatmass say about something when they all agree on it. The fact is, because you get it from alot of sources here, not a singular person.

I'd also like to say, sometimes a wandering mind can lead to a word heard incorrectly.

God bless,

Mikey

[Aloysius]

i didn't mean to imply you lack sense or something. it came out wrong, forgive me.

it's been a tremendous misunderstanding as far as i'm conserned. i'm not even sure that the people who taught you that intended you to understand it as we don't have original sin when we're born. It seems more plausible to me that they may have said we had never sinned when we were born, like how people always say babies are innocent. That's true. But it's also true that those babies' souls are stained with original sin until they are baptized.

[cmotherofpirl]

Adam and Eve started out pure and without sin, they consorted with the devil and committed sin. The stain of that sin is on the soul of every person ever born since. It is called [i]original sin.[/i]It is not a sin we ourselves committed, but an [i]inherited[/i] stain.

Baptism removes the stain of Adam and Eves sin and makes us members of the Church.

Babies are born without personal sin and are considered incapable of personal until the age of readon and understanding, about age 7.

A person being baptised after the age of 7 has some personal sin and so when they are baptised any personal sin as well as original sin is removed.

This IS the teaching of the Catholic Church.

Edited August 8, 2004 by cmotherofpirl

[Quietfire]

Tora,
Oh dear, please dont think anyone here thinks you have no sense. I understood everyword you wrote, but the point we have been trying to make is that although the Church (Catholic) only teaches Truth, there are people within her who may teach falsety.

This would be difficult to know if you dont know what the true teachings are. So it is very probable that someone was being taught an untruth.
What all of us here have told you is Truth.
What you and your daughters friend was taught is untruth.
I would suggest yanking her from that program, but that may be a bit extreme.

See, this is why I am so terrified to start RCIA. Since I dont know everything, it is very, VERY possible to be taught something that the Church holds as a lie.
Until I know for sure that I will be taught proper Catholic information, I am holding off.
Phatmass is a wealth of information, and although it doesnt claim to give a person a PhD in Catholicism, I think she does a pretty good job of keeping my understanding on the right path.

It has been suggested by Cmom (hey babe! what up?) to get a copy of Catholicism for Dummies.(NOT the idiots guide to Catholicism-bad teaching in there)
Catholicism for Dummies will lay solid groundwork for Catholic teaching.
Albiet at a elementary level, but still better than nothing, or worse yet, heresy!

Please dont think anyone here was insulting you. We all wish you peace of mind and heart.
Let me now how this works out for you.

Peace.

[MorphRC]

[quote name='carrdero' date='Aug 9 2004, 03:07 AM'] My apologies then. [/quote]
Dont apologize.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Tora-Musume' date='Aug 8 2004, 01:41 PM']It was not only my friends daughter I am asking this for. It is also for me. Comming from a Catholic family and going to church, it makes you wonder again, why 2 beliefs are being taught. (Please scroll up.) Since this is being said as a misunderstanding or a wolf in a sheeps clothing (in a church?) I will have to say, Moving On! 

Gotta Love Me!  [/quote]
The Church does not teach "two beliefs" on the topic of [i]original sin[/i], nor has she ever done that. But at this point, the only way to really help to clarify matters for you, would be for you to provide the Catholic documents and sources that you are reading, because only in that way can I try and see where your misconception lies. At present your comments are so general, and you give no Catholic documentation to support your assertion of "two beliefs" being taught, that I cannot really give an answer to your concerns. But I will reiterate in outline form the basic tenets of the Catholic doctrines of creation and the fall.

1. Adam and Eve were created naturally [i]free[/i] and [i]good[/i].
2. God gave them the [i]supernatural gift[/i] of [i]sanctifying grace[/i], which made them truly just, and this justice is called [i]original justice[/i].
3. God gave them other [i]preternatural gifts[/i] to perfect and adorn their human nature, i.e., [i]integrity[/i], [i]impassibility[/i], [i]immortality[/i], and [i]infused knowledge[/i].
4. When Adam committed the [i]original sin[/i], he lost the [i]supernatural gift[/i] of [i]sanctifying grace[/i], and the [i]preternatural gifts[/i] mentioned above.
4[A]. The loss of [i]sanctifying grace[/i] meant that Adam was no longer truly and [i]supernaturally[/i] just, but he lost nothing natural to his humanity; instead, he lost the [i]divine intimacy[/i] and [i]communion[/i] that he possessed with God while he had been in a state of [i]sanctifying grace[/i].
4[B]. The loss of the [i]preternatural gifts[/i], which were meant to perfect and adorn his natural abilities, wounded his human nature, and as a consequence: he no longer had perfect control of his passions through the use of reason (loss of [i]integrity[/i]), he was no longer immortal and so death entered the world (loss of immortality), he was no longer immune from suffering (loss of [i]impassibility[/i]), and he no longer understood his own nature, environment, human relations, God, etc., and so ignorance entered into the world (loss of [i]infused knowledge[/i]).
5. Because of Adam's fall, all men are born in a state of [i]original sin[/i], i.e., they are not born in a state of [i]sanctifying grace[/i]. [i]Original sin[/i] is the privation of the state of [i]sanctifying grace[/i]. [i]Original sin[/i] is an [i]actual sin[/i] on the part of Adam alone. [i]Original sin[/i] is not an [i]actual sin[/i] on the part of Adam's descendants; instead, it is a state of being or existence. Christ came in order to restore the [i]divine likeness[/i] deformed by sin and thus restores those who are baptized to a state of [i]sanctifying grace[/i].
6. [i]Original sin[/i] and [i]actual sins[/i] in Adam's descendants are not identical, as stated above, [i]original sin[/i] is a state of being, while [i]actual sins[/i] are those personal acts of a man which he performs, after the attainment of the age of reason, that do not conform to the natural moral law.

Now, as I said at the beginning of my response, I need to know what Catholic documents and sources you are reading so that I can correct your misinterpretation of them. The position I have indicated above, although simplified, contains the main elements of the Catholic doctrine of man's creation and his fall from grace into sin.

God bless,
Todd

Edited August 9, 2004 by Apotheoun

[Tora-Musume]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Aug 9 2004, 03:25 AM'] The Church does not teach "two beliefs" on the topic of [i]original sin[/i], nor has she ever done that. But at this point, the only way to really help to clarify matters for you, would be for you to provide the Catholic documents and sources that you are reading, because only in that way can I try and see where your misconception lies. At present your comments are so general, and you give no Catholic documentation to support your assertion of "two beliefs" being taught, that I cannot really give an answer to your concerns. But I will reiterate in outline form the basic tenets of the Catholic doctrines of creation and the fall.

1. Adam and Eve were created naturally [i]free[/i] and [i]good[/i].
2. God gave them the [i]supernatural gift[/i] of [i]sanctifying grace[/i], which made them truly just, and this justice is called [i]original justice[/i].
3. God gave them other [i]preternatural gifts[/i] to perfect and adorn their human nature, i.e., [i]integrity[/i], [i]impassibility[/i], [i]immortality[/i], and [i]infused knowledge[/i].
4. When Adam committed the [i]original sin[/i], he lost the [i]supernatural gift[/i] of [i]sanctifying grace[/i], and the [i]preternatural gifts[/i] mentioned above.
4[A]. The loss of [i]sanctifying grace[/i] meant that Adam was no longer truly and [i]supernaturally[/i] just, but he lost nothing natural to his humanity; instead, he lost the [i]divine intimacy[/i] and [i]communion[/i] that he possessed with God while he had been in a state of [i]sanctifying grace[/i].
4[B]. The loss of the [i]preternatural gifts[/i], which were meant to perfect and adorn his natural abilities, wounded his human nature, and as a consequence: he no longer had perfect control of his passions through the use of reason (loss of [i]integrity[/i]), he was no longer immortal and so death entered the world (loss of immortality), he was no longer immune from suffering (loss of [i]impassibility[/i]), and he no longer understood his own nature, environment, human relations, God, etc., and so ignorance entered into the world (loss of [i]infused knowledge[/i]).
5. Because of Adam's fall, all men are born in a state of [i]original sin[/i], i.e., they are not born in a state of [i]sanctifying grace[/i]. [i]Original sin[/i] is the privation of the state of [i]sanctifying grace[/i]. [i]Original sin[/i] is an [i]actual sin[/i] on the part of Adam alone. [i]Original sin[/i] is not an [i]actual sin[/i] on the part of Adam's descendants; instead, it is a state of being or existence. Christ came in order to restore the [i]divine likeness[/i] deformed by sin and thus restores those who are baptized to a state of [i]sanctifying grace[/i].
6. [i]Original sin[/i] and [i]actual sins[/i] in Adam's descendants are not identical, as stated above, [i]original sin[/i] is a state of being, while [i]actual sins[/i] are those personal acts of a man which he performs, after the attainment of the age of reason, that do not conform to the natural moral law.

Now, as I said at the beginning of my response, I need to know what Catholic documents and sources you are reading so that I can correct your misinterpretation of them. The position I have indicated above, although simplified, contains the main elements of the Catholic doctrine of man's creation and his fall from grace into sin.

God bless,
Todd [/quote]
[quote]But at this point, the only way to really help to clarify matters for you, would be for you to provide the Catholic documents and sources that you are reading, because only in that way can I try and see where your misconception lies.  At present your comments are so general, and you give no Catholic documentation to support your assertion of "two beliefs" being taught, that I cannot really give an answer to your concerns. [/quote]

I would give you proof, but there is only one problem . My mother who had agreed that we are born without sin has passed away. (GOD bless her soul). The other thing is, this was yearsssss ago. I must have been like in my early teens when I was going to Catholic Church. Does verbal teachings count? I was taught verbally and some readings of the book but I am not much of a reader? But from what I gather from all the posts in here and everyones scripture on Adam and Eve, it's a wolf in sheeps clothing that has taught me about the being born without sin. .

If anyone has a time machine, I can go back and record all the teachings that I received from that Church. j/k


And from my friends daughter, she is not learning the Catholic way anymore. She is now a inter-denominational.

Thank You All!

[carrdero]

[quote name='Tora-Musume' date='Aug 5 2004, 03:14 PM'] If GOD was perfect, why did he not make us ALL perfect? Perfect=without defect; free from any flaw, faultless: completely skilled; expert.
Is it not that we are free of sin when we are baptised or is it that we are free of sin when we are born? I got 2 answers on the free of sin and they are both from the same faith. Help me out here with this question please. 

[/quote]
If GOD is perfect it is because GOD desires to be Perfect. GOD has also had more moments to become perfect.

[quote] Since GOD is perfect, could he not have made us ALL entities in perfection?[/quote]

All entities do not have the desire to be perfect (you can PROVE this by just looking at other entities around you). For GOD to "interfere" with our lives and make everyone perfect would go against his LOVE and the freedom that comes with K(NOW)ing who GOD is. And besides isn't the challenge of becoming good or perfect at something more enlightening than someone making you Perfect to begin with?

[quote]You mean to say that we are all sinners and that we are to be punished for all our sins? Ok..now I am really lost[/quote]

That's all right I will find you. You are not born a sinner. You are not born of Original Sin. I was not born of Original Sin. I am perfectly capable of creating and committing my own sins without having to rely on someone else'e, thank you. Imagine coming into a physical existence and your parents or loved ones saying to you;

MOM: Little PatricK.
LITTLE PATRICK: Yes, Mom and Dad, whats the matter, why are you crying?
DAD: Shoud I tell him dear?
MOM: (crying while nodding)
DAD: What your Mom and me are trying to tell you son, is that you are responsible/accountable/guilty for Adam and Eve's sin/ the holocaust/ slavery in the United States.
LITTLE PATRICK: No!! No!!! It can't be. If I knew this was going to happen I would have never been born. Well what do I do !?!? How do I get it off me?!?!?!
MOM: (still crying) We are going to take you someplace to get it washed off right now.

If this little dramatization seems absurd and ludicrous to you it's because it is. You are accountable to your own mistakes. You are to blame for your own mistakes. If you desire forgiveness the only place you should look for forgiveness is within. Do not let others tell you you are to be blamed for other people's mistakes. And as for baptism, well thats another thread altogether.

Edited August 9, 2004 by carrdero

[Tora-Musume]

Thank You

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Tora-Musume' date='Aug 9 2004, 06:46 AM'] I would give you proof, but there is only one problem  . My mother who had agreed that we are born without sin has passed away. (GOD bless her soul). The other thing is, this was yearsssss ago. I must have been like in my early teens when I was going to Catholic Church. Does verbal teachings count? I was taught verbally and some readings of the book but I am not much of a reader? But from what I gather from all the posts in here and everyones scripture on Adam and Eve, it's a wolf in sheeps clothing that has taught me about the being born without sin. .

If anyone has a time machine, I can go back and record all the teachings that I received from that Church.  j/k


And from my friends daughter, she is not learning the Catholic way anymore. She is now a inter-denominational.

Thank You All! [/quote]
I don't have a time machine, but I can tell you this, the idea that we are born without [i]original sin[/i] was condemned as a heresy more than 1500 years ago. The heresy is called Pelagianism. So, anyone or any source that says the opposite is not orthodox, and is as a consequence, not Catholic.

God bless,
Todd

Edited August 9, 2004 by Apotheoun

[Aloysius]

carrderro, thank you for ridiculing our beliefs. we DO believe that a person's soul is tainted with original sin. not the holocaust or slavery, but yes: sin. There is a spiritual reality that transcends what your mere human reason indicates to you. We are born into the darkness, seperated from God because of the decision of our first parents. We must be baptized to become Sons of God, to escape the darkness and find the light. may I ask you carrdero, have you been baptized in the Name of the Most Holy Trinity? if not, I can definitely see why you are so easily deceived by whatever speaks to you claiming to be God. A baptized person has the Trinity inside them and thus are more able to recognize True Light from darkness (of course, if someone renounces their baptism enough through unbelief they too might fall victem to deceit)

God never changes. the assertion that God is perfect because He desires to be perfect and has had more time to become perfect is flawed. God is the Great I AM, the definition of Existence, the ONE who IS. He is unchanging for all eternity, the perfect Good.

[Quietfire]

Actually, unless Carderro wishes to correct me...I believe he was baptised in the Church.

But from what I understand from our conversations, he was dragged to Church as a child.

Did I get that right Pat?

Peace.
Oh and Pat, the little play wasnt necessary.
Original sin is nothing like what youve described.
Original sin is the sin of self above God.
Not the apple. Or Holocaust. Or slavery.

Edited August 9, 2004 by Quietfire

[Tora-Musume]

Thanks Quietfire. I got your message. I would like to Thank Everyone for responding to my question.

See you around! ~~<~<~{@ For All

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='carrdero' date='Aug 9 2004, 06:57 AM']That's all right I will find you. You are not born a sinner. You are not born of Original Sin. I was not born of Original Sin. I am perfectly capable of creating and committing my own sins without having to rely on someone else'e, thank you. Imagine coming into a physical existence and your parents or loved ones saying to you;

MOM: Little PatricK.
LITTLE PATRICK: Yes, Mom and Dad, whats the matter, why are you crying?
DAD: Shoud I tell him dear?
MOM: (crying while nodding)
DAD: What your Mom and me are trying to tell you son, is that you are responsible/accountable/guilty for Adam and Eve's sin/ the holocaust/ slavery in the United States.
LITTLE PATRICK: No!! No!!! It can't be. If I knew this was going to happen I would have never been born. Well what do I do !?!? How do I get it off me?!?!?!
MOM: (still crying) We are going to take you someplace to get it washed off right now.

If this little dramatization seems absurd and ludicrous to you it's because it is. You are accountable to your own mistakes. You are to blame for your own mistakes. If you desire forgiveness the only place you should look for forgiveness is within. Do not let others tell you you are to be blamed for other people's mistakes. And as for baptism, well thats another thread altogether.[/quote]
Clearly, you still don't grasp the nature of the doctrine of [i]original sin[/i]. It is not an act on the part of Adam's descendants, and so no one but Adam is "guilty" of that particular act. But by his action, Adam lost the indwelling of the Holy Spirit for himself as well as for his descendants. The supernatural gift of [i]sanctifying grace[/i] had been given to Adam contingently, and alas, by his sin, he failed to pass the test of obedience to God. Now, if Adam had not committed the [i]original sin[/i] and had he thus remained in a state of deifying grace, he would have passed the state of [i]original justice[/i] (i.e., sanctifying or deifying grace) on to all his descendants, but as we all know from the narrative in Genesis, he didn't pass the test.

Moreover, Catholicism is not a form of Manichaean dualism, and so it doesn't see [i]original sin[/i] as a "thing" or "essence"; instead, [i]original sin[/i] is a privation of, a lack of, [i]sanctifying grace[/i] in the human person. This lack of grace is restored by Christ.

Now, I don't expect you as a non-Catholic to necessarily accept Catholic doctrine, but you shouldn't misrepresent what we believe as you have done with your little narrative between "little Patrick" and his mom and dad. One can only make an act of faith in God and the mysteries revealed by Him with the aid of His grace, so I certainly don't expect you to believe the doctrines of the faith because you've read my posts; but as I said above, you shouldn't misrepresent Catholic beliefs. You shouldn't accuse Catholics of believing something that we do not believe, as you do in your little narrative. Neither I nor anyone else on Phatmass bears any guilt for the Holocaust, and I doubt anyone here at Phatmass was even alive during the Holocaust, but regardless, we only bear guilt for our own actions.

So, let me reiterate for the sake of clarity, [i]original sin[/i] is a state of being, and so it is not an act on the part of Adam's descendants, and as a consequence, Adam's descendants don't bear the guilt for his action, but we do suffer the effects flowing from his choice to disobey God, in that he lost a precious gift that was meant to be ours (i.e., the state of sanctifying grace).

But as a Catholic, I thank God daily, because Jesus Christ has renewed the likeness to God lost by Adam's sin, and in the process He has restored the wonderful gift of [i]sanctifying grace[/i] to all who are incorporated into His mystical Body the Church.

God bless,
Todd

Edited August 9, 2004 by Apotheoun

[MorphRC]