Aloysius Posted September 12, 2003 Posted September 12, 2003 Catholic Predestination means we all have free will. By our own choices and free will, we will either accept God's grace and all that cool jazz and go to heaven, or not and end up in the inferno. God, however, exists outside of time. Therefore, certain people He knows will make it to heaven. THey are the 'elect.' However, ppl can change at any time. God could be lookin down on the head of the Planned Parenthood Nazi Murderer group and considering them the 'elect' because He knows they convert later. However, he does not control this. It's like an arial view of an intersection. U see two cars goin really fast, you can know they're goin to crash, but u don't know control it. It's somethin like that. is that rightio?
ICTHUS Posted September 13, 2003 Posted September 13, 2003 Ummm, not quite, Aloysius. I subscribe to a theory of predestination called Thomism, which is a lot like Calvinism. It can be described this way, using the famous acrostic... Total inability - without the prevenient inspiration of Grace, man cannot come to God, repent, or be penitent as he ought. - see Council of Trent, Canon III on Justification Unconditional Election - God unconditionally elects those who will be saved finally (note that unlike in Calvinism, it is possible to well and truly lose your salvation by mortal sin - hence some are elected unto INITIAL salvation but not to final salvation, i.e. to persevere) based on His own good will. Romans 9:15 "I have mercy on whom I will". In doing so, he does not actively beaver dam anyone to Hell. He simply chooses those whose names will be written in the Book of Life, and passes over the rest. Consequently, the unelect are responsible for their own damnation because although God gives sufficient grace to everyone through the atonement, to come to faith in Christ, the atonement will only be efficacious for the Elect and the unelect will beaver dam themselves by their own sin. They are without any excuse at all. Limited efficacy of the atonement The atonement, although it provides sufficient grace for EVERYONE to come to Christ, will only be efficacious for the Elect. Intrinsically efficacious grace - the Grace that brings us to salvation is always sufficient to produce salvation for the Elect "intrinsically efficacious....procures salvation. The grace itself has the power to bring about the result of salvation, and it always does. Perseverance of the Elect - all those unconditionally elected by God unto final salvation will persevere to the end, be saved and either go straight to heaven or endure purgatory for a time. Does that explain things at all about my views on Predestination?
ICTHUS Posted September 13, 2003 Posted September 13, 2003 (edited) Catholic Predestination means we all have free will. By our own choices and free will, we will either accept God's grace and all that cool jazz and go to heaven, or not and end up in the inferno. God, however, exists outside of time. Therefore, certain people He knows will make it to heaven. THey are the 'elect.' However, ppl can change at any time. God could be lookin down on the head of the Planned Parenthood Nazi Murderer group and considering them the 'elect' because He knows they convert later. However, he does not control this. It's like an arial view of an intersection. U see two cars goin really fast, you can know they're goin to crash, but u don't know control it. It's somethin like that. is that rightio? Aloysius, what you just described is Molinism (I think) which in my opinion is an unbiblical (not to mention violating the sovereignty of God) load of bunk. Not that I believe in Sola Scriptura. I just think that the proofs for Molinism (and Arminianism, and all those other stupid free-will soteriological positions) are weak at best. God KNOWS who the Elect are. Period, but He allows the unelect to beaver dam themselves by simply leaving them be. However, I am prevented by the teaching of the Church from calling Molinists heretics, but if there are any Molinists here...come out of the rafters and give me your best shot, punk(s)!!! Edited September 13, 2003 by ICTHUS
Aloysius Posted September 16, 2003 Posted September 16, 2003 hmm....... i think im a mollinist B) cooooooool
ICTHUS Posted September 16, 2003 Posted September 16, 2003 hmm....... i think im a mollinist B) cooooooool We should have a Thomist vs. Molinist debate... I'd be willing to represent the Thomist position, once I read up on it a big more...
cmotherofpirl Posted September 16, 2003 Posted September 16, 2003 AS far as I can see Aloysius has the correct position.
ICTHUS Posted September 17, 2003 Posted September 17, 2003 cmom, how dare you tell me I'm wrong. Thomism is a completely orthodox soteriological position. So is molinism, i just happen to think its an unbiblical load of BS. So butt out.
cmotherofpirl Posted September 17, 2003 Posted September 17, 2003 cmom, how dare you tell me I'm wrong. Thomism is a completely orthodox soteriological position. So is molinism, i just happen to think its an unbiblical load of BS. So butt out. And you and what army are going to make me? :lol:
ICTHUS Posted September 18, 2003 Posted September 18, 2003 As I said before, we should have a Thomist vs. Molinist debate, even though either one is orthodox, I'd like to see which side wins the debate. Can someone describe Augustinian soteriology for me? Ive heard that its a third soteriological position that Catholics are allowed to hold. How does it differ from Thomism?
Paladin D Posted September 18, 2003 Posted September 18, 2003 What's the difference between Thomist and Molinist? What are they?
Norseman82 Posted September 21, 2003 Posted September 21, 2003 Interestingly, the first reading at Mass today was from Wisdom. Utterly prophetic of Christ's crucifixion!!!! I posted my reflections in the "Word" phorum: http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s...t=0entry30568 But out of respect for JasJis' purpose of that phorum, if anyone wishes to debate, let's do it here in this phorum/thread.
Aloysius Posted September 22, 2003 Posted September 22, 2003 a thread shall be formed it shall be called "Thomism vs. Mollinism" and i shall attempt to post there, however, i don't know what either one really is too much, but whatever IT IS DECREED> THE THOMISM VS MOLLINISM DEBATE SHALL COMMENCE!
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