Learned Something New

[Matty_boy]

The library closed before I could get to due to traffic, so now I will have to wait until monday.

[Matty_boy]

Um That was Theoketos not Matty Boy, Theo is at my House....

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='Cure of Ars' date='Aug 12 2004, 04:56 PM'] The suspense is killing me.


[/quote]
here are their responses:

[quote]Nicholas Hardesty wrote:
> --What name, word, or phrase DOES mean "grain of sand," if not the
> Aramaic for "Simon"? Please provide the transliteration of this
> answer as well.

How about פרידתא peridhetha (Targum Yonatan Isa 48:19), ܦܪܕܬܐ
perdtha/predhta (Syriac)? (I'm not sure of the vocalization on the
Syriac--the vowel in Payne-Smith looks like it's over the /r/, but it
could be that it fits better over the lower consonant; the
transliteration in HALOT suggests that it goes with /p/.)[/quote]

i believe that [i]peridhetha[/i], [i]perdtha[/i], or [i]predhta[/i] would all be possible transliterations of the Aramaic for "grain of sand."

also this:

[quote]> --Supposing that Jesus spoke Aramaic, what word would he use in
> order to call Simon by name? What is the transliteration of this
> word?

Shim'on[/quote]

so, the conclusion we come to is this:
1. Jesus called Simon by name by saying "Shim'on." in other words, Simon's name in Aramaic is "Shim'on"
2. Shim'on does not mean "grain of sand." instead it means "hearing and obedient."
3. The word that does mean "grain of sand" is peridhetha/perdtha/predhta
4. Therefore, the claim that "the name Simon in Aramaic means 'grain of sand' " is false, based upon the information that we have obtained on this subject.

this is a prime example of using third-party sources w/o checking them first yourself. hopefully this and similar mistakes can be avoided.

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Aug 12 2004, 11:23 PM']here are their responses:
i believe that [i]peridhetha[/i], [i]perdtha[/i], or [i]predhta[/i] would all be possible transliterations of the Aramaic for "grain of sand."
also this:
so, the conclusion we come to is this:
1. Jesus called Simon by name by saying "Shim'on." in other words, Simon's name in Aramaic is "Shim'on"
2. Shim'on does not mean "grain of sand." instead it means "hearing and obedient."
3. The word that does mean "grain of sand" is peridhetha/perdtha/predhta
4. Therefore, the claim that "the name Simon in Aramaic means 'grain of sand' " is false, based upon the information that we have obtained on this subject.
this is a prime example of using third-party sources w/o checking them first yourself. hopefully this and similar mistakes can be avoided.

pax christi,
phatcatholic[/quote]
This is all quite interesting.

Simon = hear, hearken, obedient
bar = son of
Jonah = dove

So one could say that, Simon bar Jonah, translated into English means:

[b]Obedient[/b] (Simon) [b]son of[/b] (bar) [[i][b]the[/b][/i]] [b]Dove[/b] (Jonah)

[b]Hear[/b] (Simon) [b]son of[/b] (bar) [[i][b]the[/b][/i]] [b]Dove[/b] (Jonah)

And then Jesus renames Simon "Kepha" (rock). Interestingly enough, there is possibly another play on words here, because the Aramaic word "Kepha" means "rock," and the Greek word "Kephali" means "head," and since Peter always comes at the head of any list of the Apostles, as the first among them, one could say that Christ has made Peter the Rock of the Church, and also her visible head. The Greek word "Protos" which means "first" is also associated with Peter in the New Testament. Just some interesting word plays.

[phatcatholic]

it looks like Peter is important in every language

[Cure of Ars]

Thanks phatcatholic, you went beyond the call of duty.

[Cure of Ars]

My follow up e-mail;


[quote]

webmaster@smcenter.org

In regard to Simon in Aramaic meaning "grain of sand", our research has come to the following conclusions;

1. Jesus called Simon by name by saying "Shim'on." in other words, Simon's name in Aramaic is "Shim'on"
2. Shim'on does not mean "grain of sand." instead it means "hearing and obedient."
3. The word that does mean "grain of sand" is peridhetha/perdtha/predhta in Aramaic
4. Therefore, the claim that "the name Simon in Aramaic means 'grain of sand' " is false, based upon the information that we have obtained on this subject.

In the interest of truth please remove this claim from your website unless you have information that we do not have.  If you have information contrary to our research please let us know.


Here is a link to gives the avenues that we have taken to research this subject. 

[url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=17447&st=0"]http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=17447&st=0[/url]


Your brother in Christ,

Austin Cartwright
[/quote]

[phatcatholic]

cool

[phatcatholic]

someone else posted about this at the yahoo group i joined. they basically affirm what we have already discovered:[list]
[*]I am apologizing if I double somebody's reply, since the question was
put on line long time ago.

Simon is a Greek form of Hebrew Shim2on (2 represents Semitic guttural hard stop 'ayin'). The Semitic root of this Hebrew name means "to hear, listen". This Biblical name was very widespread not only in many Semitic languages, but also in many cultures which followed Biblical traditions. The attempts to etymologize Simon from Greek or Latin (like Lat. Semen, -inis) are wrong linguistically, but probably could be maintained poetically.

I hope it is sufficient,

Hayim Sheynin
Adjunct professor of Hebrew and Semitic Languages and Literatures
Gratz College
7605 Old York Rd.
Melrose Park, PA 19027
[/list]pax christi,
phatcatholic

Edited September 9, 2004 by phatcatholic

[StColette]

awesome Phat !!!

[franciscanheart]

[phatcatholic]

here is another addition to the discussion, a response to the previous reply:[list]
[*]> Simon is a Greek form of Hebrew Shim2on (2 represents Semitic guttural
> hard stop 'ayin').

You mean, "fricative" not "hard stop", I guess.

> The attempts to etymologize Simon from Greek or Latin (like Lat. Semen,
> -inis) are wrong linguistically, but probably could be maintained poetically.

This confusion may have some sources in the large number of Greek loan words
in post Achaemenid Aramaic (browsing the Comprehensive Aramaic Lexicon data
base shows a huge number of words which are obviously Greek loan words).

Regards

Mathias
[/list]
i'm not really sure what it means, but maybe it will be helpful for someone. actually, if this topic of "Simon" meaning "grain of sand" ever comes up, just link to this thread and let your inquisitor decipher it for himself!

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[MrsFrozen]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Aug 13 2004, 04:24 AM'] This is all quite interesting.

Simon = hear, hearken, obedient
bar = son of
Jonah = dove

So one could say that, Simon bar Jonah, translated into English means:

[b]Obedient[/b] (Simon) [b]son of[/b] (bar) [[i][b]the[/b][/i]] [b]Dove[/b] (Jonah)

[b]Hear[/b] (Simon) [b]son of[/b] (bar) [[i][b]the[/b][/i]] [b]Dove[/b] (Jonah)

And then Jesus renames Simon "Kepha" (rock). Interestingly enough, there is possibly another play on words here, because the Aramaic word "Kepha" means "rock," and the Greek word "Kephali" means "head," and since Peter always comes at the head of any list of the Apostles, as the first among them, one could say that Christ has made Peter the Rock of the Church, and also her visible head. The Greek word "Protos" which means "first" is also associated with Peter in the New Testament. Just some interesting word plays.

[/quote]
That's really interesting!

[phatcatholic]

i wanted to bump this b/c i think its interesting

[scardella]

rock the heck on!

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='scardella' date='Mar 21 2005, 01:39 PM'] rock the heck on! [/quote]
hehe, yup