p0lar_bear Posted August 13, 2004 Posted August 13, 2004 Morph, Madonna isn't criticizing Vatican II, the Pope, or the current Magisterium. She is criticizing the liberties some people take in a "spirit of Vatican II" which generally has little to do with the actual documents of Vatican II or the Magisterium.
Madonna Posted August 13, 2004 Author Posted August 13, 2004 [quote name='p0lar_bear' date='Aug 13 2004, 10:52 AM']Madonna, I apologize if I offended you. I realize that I started the post as addressed to you then went on to general comments for everyone. That was my mistake, I'm sorry. I understand that you are not schismatic and are interested more in addressing the abuses. However, the liturgy tends to be a very....contentious...issue for many, so it's generally best to clarify that you are talking about abuses in the liturgy, not the liturgy itself. Also, these threads often take on a life of their own and become "new Mass" vs. "old Mass" or attacks on the hierarchy regardless of the intention of the original author.[/quote] I was offended at first and you are most definitely forgiven. I am new to phatmass. I was deeply confused to why everyone was jumping all over and talking to me in a condescending manner. I have not addressed anyone as so. I think that it is bad debating form not to give the other person respect, so in trying to see it from your side, I realized that Vatican II is probably a severely touchy subject here that has most probably taken a turn for the worst when discussed. However, I think we should be adults here. I am interested in learning more and getting other people's perspective. If sensitivity can be set aside, I would appreciate having a respectful discussion on Vatican II.
p0lar_bear Posted August 13, 2004 Posted August 13, 2004 I do seem to be talking like a professor or something today, don't I? eech! We can talk about Vatican II and what it meant, but posts which claim that it was heretical or imply that the current Magisterium is acting contrary to Church teaching are not allowed. dUSt, in his infinite wisdom as Master of Phatmass, has decided not to allow Catholic vs. Catholic debate. It gets really messy really quickly (this is experience talking here).
Madonna Posted August 13, 2004 Author Posted August 13, 2004 [quote name='p0lar_bear' date='Aug 13 2004, 11:08 AM'] We can talk about Vatican II and what it meant, but posts which claim that it was heretical or imply that the current Magisterium is acting contrary to Church teaching are not allowed. dUSt, in his infinite wisdom as Master of Phatmass, has decided not to allow Catholic vs. Catholic debate. It gets really messy really quickly (this is experience talking here). [/quote] I couldn't agree more. I am on staff at onerock, and I know how message boards go.
cmotherofpirl Posted August 13, 2004 Posted August 13, 2004 [quote name='Madonna' date='Aug 13 2004, 01:01 PM'] I was offended at first and you are most definitely forgiven. I am new to phatmass. I was deeply confused to why everyone was jumping all over and talking to me in a condescending manner. I have not addressed anyone as so. I think that it is bad debating form not to give the other person respect, so in trying to see it from your side, I realized that Vatican II is probably a severely touchy subject here that has most probably taken a turn for the worst when discussed. However, I think we should be adults here. I am interested in learning more and getting other people's perspective. If sensitivity can be set aside, I would appreciate having a respectful discussion on Vatican II. [/quote] Ah, I want to apologize. Now that you have explained in more detail I understand where you are coming from. It was the way you phrased one of your statements that confused me.
p0lar_bear Posted August 13, 2004 Posted August 13, 2004 Now that we have all of that cleared up.... Regarding abuses and the liturgy, I think the Magisterium has made clear that the abuses and the liberties are not what was intended by the Council Fathers (or by the subsequent documents on the liturgy). I think most of it come from a misinterpretation of "active participation," the priesthood of the faithful, and the "sense of the faithful."
Madonna Posted August 13, 2004 Author Posted August 13, 2004 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Aug 13 2004, 11:32 AM'] Ah, I want to apologize. Now that you have explained in more detail I understand where you are coming from. It was the way you phrased one of your statements that confused me. [/quote] Definitely forgiven. Are there other people here that have been to a Mass where the kinds of abuses I mentioned take place? I dislike feeling so helpless when these abuses occur.
cmotherofpirl Posted August 13, 2004 Posted August 13, 2004 I am sure there are. However I have rarley experienced them in the Pittsburgh diocese. Where are you?
Madonna Posted August 13, 2004 Author Posted August 13, 2004 Archdiocese of New Orleans when I'm not at school. Archbishop Hughes has been putting the smackdown on a lot of abuses and bad catechesis. (I feel bad that I could not think of a better word than "smackdown" ) My parents had a great conversation with him last night. He's such a down to earth man.
p0lar_bear Posted August 13, 2004 Posted August 13, 2004 Personally, the only abuses I have seen have been minor (something I might notice, but not something worth writing the bishop over). I have heard of serious abuses though, so I know they happen.
EcceNovaFacioOmni Posted August 13, 2004 Posted August 13, 2004 (edited) I had self-service communion during Lent two years ago. I can't stand it. It doesn't even feel like a real Mass. After this summer, I'll have to start going back there and I don't want to. Oh and I just noticed that our parish website now links the ACLU. Give me a break. They also link a local magazine that is currenty taking pre-orders for their "Stop Bush" issue. Another link is to a local peace organization, which in turn links a site suggesting moral Christians are zealots. Edited August 13, 2004 by thedude
EcceNovaFacioOmni Posted August 13, 2004 Posted August 13, 2004 Diocese of Toledo in Ohio. The new here Bishop is actually quite excellent. I don't think he's visited my parish yet...
kateri05 Posted August 14, 2004 Posted August 14, 2004 [quote name='Madonna' date='Aug 13 2004, 11:34 AM'] Definitely forgiven. Are there other people here that have been to a Mass where the kinds of abuses I mentioned take place? I dislike feeling so helpless when these abuses occur. [/quote] i have defintiely been to "abusey" Masses (although some of your examples are even worse than mine ) and i feel helpless too. i find it hard because i feel like i can do nothing: sure i can write to the bishop, but i'm sure they get complaints all the time and don't want to seem whiney. and i don't want to be disrespectful... and plus, what if the problem stems from the bishop? nothing would happen anyway... Vatican II was such a beautiful moment in our Church's history, it just makes me sad that some grossly misinterpret the whole thing
qfnol31 Posted August 14, 2004 Posted August 14, 2004 I'm reading a great book called "What Really Went Wrong with Vatican II." And no, the guy loves the council!
lynn Posted August 14, 2004 Posted August 14, 2004 Dude, I am also in the diocese of Toledo and I definitely know what you are talking about concerning the abuses. I've seen puppets, songs like Somewhere Over the Rainbow, a Shakespeare/Opera singer priest who uses a spotlight, and a priest who didn't like individual confessions, only general absolution. When our last bishop died, one of the news reporters said that our diocese was one of the most liberal. They actually admitted it! The diocesan paper, on a regular basis, had letters from nuns who were always complaining that they couldn't be priests. I used to live in Toledo, and there is a strong socialist presence and most of these people are very liberal Catholics. (Amchurch) But, I believe our new bishop is a God send. He has had mass at my parish and his homily was very orthodox. He seems to be a holy and humble shepherd. He sure has had a lot on his plate since he was installed. There are many serious issues that need his attention, and Bishop Blair needs our daily prayers. If you are ever in Toledo, mass at St. Joseph's on Locust St. in downtown Toledo is very reverent, and they have the indult mass two Sundays a month and every Thursday. The other Sundays and weekdays, the New Mass is celebrated very reverently. My family goes to this mass once in awhile; we would like to go every week, but it is over an hour drive for us. God bless, lynn
M.SIGGA Posted August 14, 2004 Posted August 14, 2004 [quote name='Madonna' date='Aug 13 2004, 11:43 AM'] Archdiocese of New Orleans when I'm not at school. Archbishop Hughes has been putting the smackdown on a lot of abuses and bad catechesis. (I feel bad that I could not think of a better word than "smackdown" ) My parents had a great conversation with him last night. He's such a down to earth man. [/quote] I really like the traditional changes he's brought back to St. Louis Cathedral. Archbishop Hannan got rid of most of the stuff in the 60's and 70's and 80's.
EcceNovaFacioOmni Posted August 14, 2004 Posted August 14, 2004 [quote name='qfnol31' date='Aug 14 2004, 12:39 AM'] I'm reading a great book called "What Really Went Wrong with Vatican II." And no, the guy loves the council! [/quote] I've seen that book before, and I wish I had it. Tell us what you think of it when finished.
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