Monty Python, Peter, And Mary

[HS_Dad]

Just wanted to get some thoughts on this idea....

Peter to defend the Lord in the garden before the Passion
pulled out a sword and cut off the soldier's ear. Jesus
told him to put away the sword and healed the soldier's ear.

Rich Mullins, an Evangelical who was converting to Catholicism
when the Lord took him home sang a song about "Peter,
put away the Sword....."

John Paul II in the late 90's around Christmas in Rome shocked
his audience by saying that the Marian dimension of faith was
superior to the Petrine dimension of faith. I.E. servanthood,
obedience, and discipleship are above governance, authority,
and law... (After all the pope is "the servant of the servants of
Christ".) Similar themes of servanthood and radical conversion
run through Ut Unum Sint.

Anyways, my thesis is that many Catholics still see ecumenism
more in terms of Peter's sword than Christ's love and are like
Sir Launcelot in the Holy Grail at the wedding feast running
around saying 'Sorry' while killing haphazardly with the Sword.

Responses???

[HS_Dad]

Bump

[Apotheoun]

Ecumenism is about truth and love, and as Edith Stein (St. Theresa Bendicta of the Cross) once said, "Do not accept anything as the truth if it lacks love. And do not accept anything as love which lacks truth! One without the other becomes a destructive lie."

[cmotherofpirl]

Its like faith and works, you can't have one without the other.

[HS_Dad]

Source, see George Weigel's article:

[url="http://www.the-tidings.com/2003/0523/difference.htm"]http://www.the-tidings.com/2003/0523/difference.htm[/url]

[HS_Dad]

Further Clarification, Refinement from

[url="http://www.the-tidings.com/2003/0523/difference.htm"]http://www.the-tidings.com/2003/0523/difference.htm[/url]

"The "Marian profile" in the church, the pope said, is even "more...fundamental" than the "Petrine profile." The two cannot be divided. But the church formed in the image of Mary - the church of disciples - preceded and made possible the church formed in the image of Peter - the church embodied by the distinguished churchmen present at the pope's address. "

[HS_Dad]

Bump

[Seatbelt Blue]

Agreed, and I see it here all too frequently. Everyone talks about "going on crusade," which generally means "invade a protestant board, stir up trouble, and act all righteous."

[Aloysius]

there cannot be unity in love unless it is unity in ALL TRUTH as well. We cannot water down the Catholic Faith for the sake of unity. The fact is: The Catholic Church contains the fullness of the Revelation of Jesus Christ and in Ecumenism we want to share that fullness with all who profess to share the same faith in Jesus Christ. That means all Christians being made subject to the Roman Pontiff to share in the fullness of Christ's message in matters of faith and morality and truly being one rather than simply being one in word but not in deed.

'going on a crusade' is us going to a protestant board to share the TRUTH that they are missing.

we cannot sacrifice truth for unity, for without truth it would not be true unity.

[Aloysius]

though i did read that artical and have some thoughts... the petrine authority is the key to keeping unity and truth, but the marian servatude is the best way to bring people to that truth. in one sense, the servitude needs to be of the lay people to the authority of the Church, they have no right to question the Church about making women priests and all this stuff which the Church has said infallibly it cannot do... they need to become more obedient. more obedience is the Church's laypeople to the Church will be a better example to the world of our unity. another thing is that we need to be in service to the world. again-- not denying or ignoring truth for the sake of false unity, serving the people by bringing them the truth, but all the while trusting first in God and asking for His Will to be done. many people out there reject the Church on an intellectual level, so the Faithful should straiten them out on an intellectual level. some feel it on an emotional level, caused by those who are either disobedient or who do not live their faith badly repping the Church, on that level we need to LIVE OUR LIVES according to the Truth. When it comes to internet message boards, the only tools we have at our disposal are our words. when it comes to real life, we need to preach the gospel at all times and when necessary use words. i donno if we're being peter with the sword, i think we're more standing on peter the rock and inviting everyone else to stand on peter the rock more fully. it all comes down to living that contradiction which Christ commanded:
"Behold I send you as sheep in the midst of wolves. Be ye therefore wise as serpents and simple as doves." [i]St. Matthew 10:16[/i]

[Seatbelt Blue]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Aug 13 2004, 12:45 PM'] there cannot be unity in love unless it is unity in ALL TRUTH as well. We cannot water down the Catholic Faith for the sake of unity. The fact is: The Catholic Church contains the fullness of the Revelation of Jesus Christ and in Ecumenism we want to share that fullness with all who profess to share the same faith in Jesus Christ. That means all Christians being made subject to the Roman Pontiff to share in the fullness of Christ's message in matters of faith and morality and truly being one rather than simply being one in word but not in deed.

'going on a crusade' is us going to a protestant board to share the TRUTH that they are missing.

we cannot sacrifice truth for unity, for without truth it would not be true unity. [/quote]
Do you really think that going on a protestant board is going to make a lick of difference?

"Preach the gospel at all times. When necessary, use words."

I used to agree with you, but then i realized that this is detrimental. It encourages the wrong mind, and it discourages formation in the person of Christ in it's insistence on apologetical education. It forces a critical reading of scripture, looking for evidence, more than a prayerful one.

And, worst, it encourages you to think in terms of side. Your side and their side. Us and them. They are the enemy. Draw swords of exegesis and hermenutical understanding; raise Scott Hahn and Dave Armstrong as your shield; fling arrows labeled "catholic.com" and "catholicoutlook.com;" cry out, "For Karl Keating and Christ!" as you run into battle.

Don't you see that your methods, if not your motives, are off? That your debates aren't showing anybody the love of Christ, aren't encouraging them to check out the Faith, but rather, are simply making them fortify their own position and ready their own cannons to defend themselves?

Do you make war, sir, or do you make peace?

[Seatbelt Blue]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Aug 13 2004, 12:58 PM'] though i did read that artical and have some thoughts... the petrine authority is the key to keeping unity and truth, but the marian servatude is the best way to bring people to that truth. in one sense, the servitude needs to be of the lay people to the authority of the Church, they have no right to question the Church about making women priests and all this stuff which the Church has said infallibly it cannot do... they need to become more obedient. more obedience is the Church's laypeople to the Church will be a better example to the world of our unity. another thing is that we need to be in service to the world. again-- not denying or ignoring truth for the sake of false unity, serving the people by bringing them the truth, but all the while trusting first in God and asking for His Will to be done. many people out there reject the Church on an intellectual level, so the Faithful should straiten them out on an intellectual level. some feel it on an emotional level, caused by those who are either disobedient or who do not live their faith badly repping the Church, on that level we need to LIVE OUR LIVES according to the Truth. When it comes to internet message boards, the only tools we have at our disposal are our words. when it comes to real life, we need to preach the gospel at all times and when necessary use words. i donno if we're being peter with the sword, i think we're more standing on peter the rock and inviting everyone else to stand on peter the rock more fully. it all comes down to living that contradiction which Christ commanded:
"Behold I send you as sheep in the midst of wolves. Be ye therefore wise as serpents and simple as doves." [i]St. Matthew 10:16[/i] [/quote]
What is your concern, brother? Is it converting protestants through any means necessary, or is it being a disciple of Christ yourself, knowing, loving, serving? You do great disrespect to God when you go and stir evil among His children.

How do you define a good Catholic? One who faithfully follows all the codes, laws, strictures of the Church? I posit to you that they are not an end to and of themselves, but rather, signposts on the road to holiness. As St. Augustine put it, "Love God, and do what you will."

Our faith is not a question of "How far can I go before I get into trouble," but "How do I become holy?" I think you need to look more to Mary than Peter.

[Aloysius]

peace is not the absence of war... Christ did not come to bring peace but a sword... and we are called to be wise as serpents and simple as doves.

for the record: i have never read the scriptures for finding proof, i have a nice little prayer i say everytime before i open that book.

if i'm lookin for 'proof' in an argument, i tend to remember something i had read in the scriptures and then run off to [url="http://bible.crosswalk.com"]http://bible.crosswalk.com[/url] to look it up and share it with the other person.

check my last post too, i quoted the same thing 'if necessary, use words'

i live my faith, but i can't prove that to you. all i can do is be honest with myself and try my best to live my faith the way i am supposed to. i believe this to include being as wise as a serpent AND as simple as a dove.

to use our reason and intellect to discuss with people who reject the Catholic Church on an intellectual level is to work to correct their misunderstandings.

there can be no unity without agreement, there will be no agreement without dialogue, and there is no dialogue without words, logic, reason, intellect.

again: i promise you i keep my spiritual life first. i don't feel like bringing out into the open this or that thing I do to try to proove myself, I'd rather let my Father see in secret.

pax

[Aloysius]

Seatbelt, i think you need to think before you assume to know the contents of my heart.

my spiritual life comes first. i want all people to come to know God better, that includes knowing the Teachings of the Holy Catholic Apostolic Church. I want all men to be ONE as Jesus prayed.

and FYI: [color=red][edit: tooting my own horn][/color]

Edited August 13, 2004 by Aloysius

[Seatbelt Blue]

Pax indeed. I apologize if I sounded overly critical. It is not my place.

[Aloysius]

no problem.

i understand there is a danger that you might over-intellectualize your faith. but that does not make intellectualization iteself something to be avoided, for God gave us reason and intellect for a purpose. when someone is sittin there at mass listening to the readings hoping to hear something that they can use against their opponent in an argument, they have gone too far. when someone honestly seeks to have dialogue with those who disagree with them in the hopes that they can come to the fullness of truth found in the Catholic Church but keeps their spiritual journey first, that is perfectly fine and in fact something very GOOD.

[Seatbelt Blue]

I still must advise against these crusades. Ive participated in similar events elsewhere, and the inevitably degenerate into fistfighting.

[Aloysius]

be wise a serpent, simple as a dove

kinda like float like a butterfly sting like a bee, only Biblical... hehe

[HS_Dad]

For disclosure purposes, I converted this Easter.

This is probably a way too mystical way of thinking for many
on Phatmass, but I try to approach things from different angles.

A large part of the thinking and praying I did was related to
the historical record of various "state" churches, Lutheran,
Orthodox, Catholic, etc and persecution of religious minorities.

Through studying the documents of Vatican II and reading thoroughly
many encyclicals by John Paul II and beginning to understand his thought
better, I came to the conclusion that Catholicism had come to a real
understanding of the importance of religious freedom without denying
the value of truth and the normative need to fulfill Jesus' prayer that
"all may be one".

Thinking through history, all too often "Peter hasn't put away his sword".

Rich Mullins 1989, "You know Peter put away his sword
I can see Peter he's putting away his sword
I can see Peter he put away his sword
He won't fight no more

Love has come, love has come, love has come
And it's given me hope to carry on."

He was taken home in 1997.

Christ's love through Christ's life and as demonstrated by John Paul II has given
me hope to carry on as a Catholic.... But, I find the desire to wield Peter's
sword by laymen quite disconcerting and makes me wonder if some Catholics are as converted as they could be.....

John Paul II's encyclicals are quite rich... I hope people will read them, pray and reflect on them more.

Emphasizing the Petrine dimension of Catholicism will be larger ineffective in ecumenism. But, I can attest Evangelicals are impressed by real servant-like faith.

[stagefairy]

People only hear what they want to hear. Debates our only useful to a certain extent. Words don't change hearts. The Holy Spirit does.
I thought the comparison of Faith and Works was useful. The works must flow from the faith. The exterior must flow from the interior. Truth must flow from love.