The Law (god's Law, Not The Civil Law)

[ICTHUS]

A simple enough question. From a Roman Catholic point of view, what is the function of the Law of God?

[Thy Geekdom Come]

The Law of God is to guide man to God by way of God's grace working in man in accordance to God's Law.

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Aug 22 2004, 02:21 PM'] The Law of God is to guide man to God by way of God's grace working in man in accordance to God's Law. [/quote]
Okay, perhaps I should have made myself more clear. What is the function of the Law in relation to bringing us to faith in Christ.

[Brother Adam]

Which set of laws? Levitical?

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Aug 22 2004, 03:37 PM'] Okay, perhaps I should have made myself more clear. What is the function of the Law in relation to bringing us to faith in Christ. [/quote]
God brings us to faith in Christ through initial graces, especially through the graces conferred in the sacraments, for as long as we do not reject such graces. The Law is a guideline to strengthen our bond with Christ, but it is not the Law itself, nor the following of the Law, but faith which brings us to Christ. However, in following the Law, we will till the soil of souls and make it fertile ground for our faith in Christ to grow and as we grow in Christ through faith, we will more and more follow the Law, because that is the way in which Grace, which grows in us as we get closer to God, is made manifest.

[Brother Adam]

Ephesians 2:8-9 all the way

[ICTHUS]

Okay, now I'm going to stick my head in on the chopping block.

I believe the function of the Law is thus:

The Law does not justify, nor has it any power inherent in it to do so. The only thing the Law brings is the judgement and wrath of a Holy God. In fact, all who rely on the Law are under a curse, for it is written "Cursed is everyone who does not persevere in doing everything in the Law) (Galatians 3:9-11, cf. Deuterotomy 27:26)

The function of the Law is to make us aware of our sin (Romans 3:19-20). It is to make us aware of our wretched impotence to keep the Law (as Luther says, the bondage of our will in sin, so that we are unable, even by our best efforts, to keep the Law), and of the impending doom of God's Judgement as a consequence of our inability to keep the Law, and because of our pride in thinking we may do so.

In a word, the Law is like a big, mean, nasty dog whose function it is to chase us to the only one who can save us from being torn to shreds by its teeth - Christ.

[Justified Saint]

ICTHUS, what are you defining as the "Law of God"?

[ICTHUS]

Well, the Law and the Prophets, the Ten Commandments, etc, which is summed up in the commandment "You shall love the Lord your God.....and you shall love your neighbor as yourself" This is what I believe chases us to Christ by our sheer inability to keep it.

Edited August 22, 2004 by ICTHUS

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Aug 22 2004, 03:59 PM'] Okay, now I'm going to stick my head in on the chopping block.

I believe the function of the Law is thus:

The Law does not justify, nor has it any power inherent in it to do so. The only thing the Law brings is the judgement and wrath of a Holy God. In fact, all who rely on the Law are under a curse, for it is written "Cursed is everyone who does not persevere in doing everything in the Law) (Galatians 3:9-11, cf. Deuterotomy 27:26)

The function of the Law is to make us aware of our sin (Romans 3:19-20). It is to make us aware of our wretched impotence to keep the Law (as Luther says, the bondage of our will in sin, so that we are unable, even by our best efforts, to keep the Law), and of the impending doom of God's Judgement as a consequence of our inability to keep the Law, and because of our pride in thinking we may do so.

In a word, the Law is like a big, mean, nasty dog whose function it is to chase us to the only one who can save us from being torn to shreds by its teeth - Christ. [/quote]
Some of your points are to be merited, but I cannot agree with the whole. Mainly, I object to your perspective, which I find negative. The Law is not something to scare us. God does not want to scare us into coming to Him and loving Him. Rather, the Law is to safeguard our being against the wickedness and snares of the devil. It is in following such law that we cultivate within us the ability better to accept the graces and merits of Christ on the Cross.

The Law of God, the strictest of all laws, is barely law at all. Rather, it is liberation.

[Theoketos]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Aug 22 2004, 02:59 PM'] Okay, now I'm going to stick my head in on the chopping block.

I believe the function of the Law is thus:

The Law does not justify, nor has it any power inherent in it to do so. The only thing the Law brings is the judgement and wrath of a Holy God. In fact, all who rely on the Law are under a curse, for it is written "Cursed is everyone who does not persevere in doing everything in the Law) (Galatians 3:9-11, cf. Deuterotomy 27:26)

The function of the Law is to make us aware of our sin (Romans 3:19-20). It is to make us aware of our wretched impotence to keep the Law (as Luther says, the bondage of our will in sin, so that we are unable, even by our best efforts, to keep the Law), and of the impending doom of God's Judgement as a consequence of our inability to keep the Law, and because of our pride in thinking we may do so.

In a word, the Law is like a big, mean, nasty dog whose function it is to chase us to the only one who can save us from being torn to shreds by its teeth - Christ. [/quote]
For the most part I think that I would agree with your post. In that the Law caused more sin, and it does not justify Christians. It is faith that does that.

But, I think that you have a misunderstanding of the word justify. What St. Paul means by justification is: that we are made part of God's family. I storingly recomend to you N.T. Wright, on the subject.

Basically if you have that understanding of righteousness then the idea the above idea of righteousness does not really change us, sanctifing us (but we go to heaven thanks to a Joyous exchange or a sort of wink where Christ is presented sd/for us) falls apart. After we are justified we must become more and more holy, so that we are pleasing to God, and bring more of His Childern to Him.

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Aug 22 2004, 03:07 PM'] Some of your points are to be merited, but I cannot agree with the whole. Mainly, I object to your perspective, which I find negative. The Law is not something to scare us. God does not want to scare us into coming to Him and loving Him. Rather, the Law is to safeguard our being against the wickedness and snares of the devil. It is in following such law that we cultivate within us the ability better to accept the graces and merits of Christ on the Cross.

The Law of God, the strictest of all laws, is barely law at all. Rather, it is liberation. [/quote]
Disgusting theology of salvation by merit! Ugh!

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Aug 22 2004, 04:17 PM'] Disgusting theology of salvation by merit! Ugh! [/quote]
Apparently, you misread me. Give me a moment to elaborate.

It is not by our merit that we attain salvation.

I said that in following the law, we better prepare ourselves to accept Christ's graces. It is not in following the law that we accept those graces, but only that we prepare ourselves to do so. For instance, it is God's law to honor the Sabbath. Does one who goes to Mass on Sunday honor or glorify God? Yes. Does God require this? No. Rather, our going to Sunday Mass increases our knowledge of how much we need God, increases our anticipation of Heaven, and increases our appreciation of God. With such increases, we are better preparing ourselves to accept God' grace by our faith. The law is to support our faith. It is to protect us from the devil. In protecting our faith from sin, it allows our faith to blossom and thus allows us to receive graces from God through that faith.

[ICTHUS]

So, a Roman Catholic could agree with the idea that the Law chases us to Christ by fear of judgement, and we consequently take refuge in Him from said judgement?

[Justified Saint]

The Law being a gift from God is not some nasty monster that scares people into faith, that is quite a sad and misinformed understanding of the Law.

As Paul says,

It is not the hearers of the law who will be righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. Romans 2:13

The law brings us to an understanding of obedience in faith, it doesn't scare us away from it.

Edited August 22, 2004 by Justified Saint

[Justified Saint]

[quote]Does one who goes to Mass on Sunday honor or glorify God? Yes. Does God require this? No.[/quote]

If God doesn't require it then why does the Church? Yes, God does require it, but we should go because we want to honor and glorify God not because we feel we have to.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Justified Saint' date='Aug 22 2004, 04:44 PM']
If God doesn't require it then why does the Church? Yes, God does require it, but we should go because we want to honor and glorify God not because we feel we have to. [/quote]
Sorry, it's my connotation of the word "require". I use it in the context of requiring something for existence, which is the original intent of the word.

In the context of "require" as meaning "demand," then yes, God requires us to go to Mass on Sundays. I meant that He does not require it to exist...that is, He doesn't need us to go to Mass on Sundays.

[Justified Saint]

Ok, that makes sense. Thanks for the clarification.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Justified Saint' date='Aug 22 2004, 05:09 PM'] Ok, that makes sense. Thanks for the clarification. [/quote]
No problem.

[Guest JeffCR07]

Icthus, I hope that you will view the following thoughts as a legitimate reply to your post, though I admit that it may not seem as such.

I think that to view God's "Law" as a sort of unachievable standard that, by failing to live up to, forces us towards Christ out of fear of eternal damnation is a warped view of that Law.

I think to view it as such is to fall into that same sense of "legalism" that the Pharisees and Sadducees fell into.

Rather, the true "Law of God" is the Love of Christ, and it is a law inscribed upon the hearts of men. It is Faith, Hope, Love, and Charity. It is the inborn desire to do the Will of God in all things and at all times.

The Law is not an unattainable force of wrath and judgement. Rather, it is something that, when we embrace it and open ourselves to it, sets us free. It is that thing which combats the effect of original sin, our concupiscence, and corrects our flawed nature, that we might truly walk with God.

- Your Brother In Christ, Jeff