Question For Feeneyites

[CatholicCrusader]

[quote name='thedude' date='Aug 30 2004, 09:29 PM'] (and your right, they don't mention the invincebly ignorant, so it cannot be assumed that they are condemned). I think it is easy to see that they are all addressed at heretics and schismatics. [/quote]
1)
A. What I said was if it doesn't mention the inculpably ignorant as an exception to the rule, then they, too, would be included as outside the Church because

B. Florence makes clear: unless BEFORE DEATH THEY ARE JOINED TO HER. If they are joined to Her somehow before death, that means if they were to be baptized validly (by water), then it would be useless because they were already somehow joined to the Church, which obviously they weren't since they weren't baptized validly (by water).

2) Yes, it is addressing heretics. A heretic is one who does not believe what the Church teaches, whether it is a material or formal heretic. The inculpably ignorant are also heretics because they reject the Church's teaching, whether they know it or not matters not.

3) What did I say about romancatholicism.org?

[Hananiah]

[quote name='CatholicCrusader' date='Aug 30 2004, 05:34 PM'] So, then, you say it is impossible to be saved by inculpable ignorance, then, correct? Inculpable ignorance neither saves nor condemns. Is that your stance? [/quote]
Yes, invincible ignorance mitigates the guilt for the sin of heresy. It does not save. But it is important because being guilty of heresy automatically excludes one from the pale of the Church. So, one who is invincibly ignorant [i]can[/i] be saved (not will, can) whereas a heretic cannot. This is what Blessed Pope Pius IX said in Quanto Conficiamur Moerore no. 7:

[quote]There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments.[/quote]

As to the means which God would use to save such a person, this would of course be baptism by desire. I do accept the idea that God could accept only an implicit desire, but in my view the range of people to whom this could be applied is much narrower than in the view of most phatmassers. I believe it would apply only to people who 1) never heard about Christ or His Church 2) were led by God to reject all that is false in their former religion, especially idolatry, pantheism, etc. and 3) recognized the One true and righteous God and obeyed the natural law which is written on their hearts.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Hananiah' date='Aug 31 2004, 12:18 AM'] Yes, invincible ignorance mitigates the guilt for the sin of heresy. It does not save. But it is important because being guilty of heresy automatically excludes one from the pale of the Church. So, one who is invincibly ignorant [i]can[/i] be saved (not will, can) whereas a heretic cannot. This is what Blessed Pope Pius IX said in Quanto Conficiamur Moerore no. 7:



As to the means which God would use to save such a person, this would of course be baptism by desire. I do accept the idea that God could accept only an implicit desire, but in my view the range of people to whom this could be applied is much narrower than in the view of most phatmassers. I believe it would apply only to people who 1) never heard about Christ or His Church 2) were led by God to reject all that is false in their former religion, especially idolatry, pantheism, etc. and 3) recognized the One true and righteous God and obeyed the natural law which is written on their hearts. [/quote]
I think you must also add a fourth category: people who have heard of Christ and the Church, but have heard such a twisted version of the truth, that they rightly reject it, not realizing they are being lied to.

[Hananiah]

Fair enough.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

[quote]I believe it would apply only to people who 1) never heard about Christ or His Church 2) were led by God to reject all that is false in their former religion, especially idolatry, pantheism, etc. and 3) recognized the One true and righteous God and obeyed the natural law which is written on their hearts.[/quote]
I still don't see how you're position is any different from other phatmassers.
And just a comment, I think point 3 would in the end lead to point 2. However, could point 2 be implicit or would you say it needs to be explicit?

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

[quote]What did I say about romancatholicism.org?[/quote]
I think your brother posted a link from there that was an arguement for Feeneyism. I've noticed however, judging by some of the points that has come up, that nobody read the article that I posted. I think it would clear my stance up if you would read it in its entirety.
[url="http://www.cathworld.org/worlds/bible/thedude/againstfeeneyism.html"]http://www.cathworld.org/worlds/bible/thed...tfeeneyism.html[/url]