The Papist Popery Of The Papacy

[dairygirl4u2c]

a little taste of what's to come.
i haven't gone too far... I will be back soon.







the proof is IN the pudding...

Edited August 30, 2004 by dairygirl4u2c

[goldenchild17]

Papist Popery of of the Papacy... Is that even grammatically possibly? Interesting though, and and Catholoschism, that's clever.

[ironmonk]

Please get the historical facts...


Pope Clement I



"Owing to the sudden and repeated calamities and misfortunes which have befallen us, we must acknowledge that we have been somewhat tardy in turning our attention to the matters in dispute among you, beloved; and especially that abominable and unholy sedition, alien and foreign to the elect of God, which a few rash and self-willed persons have inflamed to such madness that your venerable and illustrious name, worthy to be loved by all men, has been greatly defamed. . . . Accept our counsel and you will have nothing to regret. . . . If anyone disobey the things which have been said by him [God] through us [i.e., that you must reinstate your leaders], let them know that they will involve themselves in transgression and in no small danger. . . . You will afford us joy and gladness if being obedient to the things which we have written through the Holy Spirit, you will root out the wicked passion of jealousy" (Letter to the Corinthians 1, 58–59, 63 [A.D. 80]).


Hermas



"Therefore shall you [Hermas] write two little books and send one to Clement [Bishop of Rome] and one to Grapte. Clement shall then send it to the cities abroad, because that is his duty" (The Shepherd 2:4:3 [A.D. 80]).


Ignatius of Antioch



"Ignatius . . . to the church also which holds the presidency, in the location of the country of the Romans, worthy of God, worthy of honor, worthy of blessing, worthy of praise, worthy of success, worthy of sanctification, and, because you hold the presidency in love, named after Christ and named after the Father" (Letter to the Romans 1:1 [A.D. 110]).

"You [the church at Rome] have envied no one, but others you have taught. I desire only that what you have enjoined in your instructions may remain in force" (ibid., 3:1).


Dionysius of Corinth



"For from the beginning it has been your custom to do good to all the brethren in various ways and to send contributions to all the churches in every city. . . . This custom your blessed Bishop Soter has not only preserved, but is augmenting, by furnishing an abundance of supplies to the saints and by urging with consoling words, as a loving father his children, the brethren who are journeying" (Letter to Pope Soter in Eusebius, Church History 4:23:9 [A.D. 170]).

"Today we have observed the Lord’s holy day, in which we have read your letter [Pope Soter]. Whenever we do read it [in church], we shall be able to profit thereby, as also we do when we read the earlier letter written to us by Clement" (ibid., 4:23:11).


The Martyrs of Lyons



"And when a dissension arose about these said people [the Montanists], the brethren in Gaul once more . . . [sent letters] to the brethren in Asia and Phrygia and, moreover to Eleutherius, who was then [A.D. 175] bishop of the Romans, negotiating for the peace of the churches" (Eusebius, Church History 5:3:4 [A.D. 312])

"And the same martyrs too commended Irenaeus, already at that time [A.D. 175] a presbyter of the community of Lyons, to the said bishop of Rome, rendering abundant testimony to the man, as the following expressions show: ‘Once more and always we pray that you may rejoice in God, Pope Eleutherius. This letter we have charged our brother and companion Irenaeus to convey to you, and we beg you to receive him as zealous for the covenant of Christ’" (ibid., 5:4:1–2).


Irenaeus



"But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that church, because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition" (Against Heresies 3:3:2 [A.D. 189]).


Eusebius of Caesarea



"A question of no small importance arose at that time [A.D. 190]. For the parishes of all Asia [Minor], as from an older tradition held that the fourteenth day of the moon, on which the Jews were commanded to sacrifice the lamb, should be observed as the feast of the Savior’s Passover. . . . But it was not the custom of the churches in the rest of the world . . . as they observed the practice which, from apostolic tradition, has prevailed to the present time, of terminating the fast [of Lent] on no other day than on that of the resurrection of the Savior [Sunday]. Synods and assemblies of bishops were held on this account, and all, with one consent, through mutual correspondence drew up an ecclesiastical decree that the mystery of the resurrection of the Lord should be celebrated on no other but the Lord’s day and that we should observe the close of the paschal fast on this day only. . . . Thereupon [Pope] Victor, who presided over the church at Rome, immediately attempted to cut off from the community the parishes of all Asia [Minor], with the churches that agreed with them, as heterodox. And he wrote letters and declared all the brethren there wholly excommunicate. But this did not please all the bishops, and they besought him to consider the things of peace and of neighborly unity and love. . . . [Irenaeus] fittingly admonishes Victor that he should not cut off whole churches of God which observed the tradition of an ancient custom" (Church History 5:23:1–24:11).

"Thus then did Irenaeus entreat and negotiate [with Pope Victor] on behalf of the peace of the churches—[Irenaeus being] a man well-named, for he was a peacemaker both in name and character. And he corresponded by letter not only with Victor, but also with very many and various rulers of churches" (ibid., 24:18).


Cyprian of Carthage



"The Lord says to Peter: ‘I say to you,’ he says, ‘that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not overcome it. And to you I will give the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever things you bind on earth shall be bound also in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth, they shall be loosed also in heaven’ [Matt. 16:18–19]). ... On him [Peter] he builds the Church, and to him he gives the command to feed the sheep [John 21:17], and although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single chair [cathedra], and he established by his own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were also what Peter was [i.e., apostles], but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. So too, all [the apostles] are shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the apostles in single-minded accord. If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he [should] desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?" (The Unity of the Catholic Church 4; 1st edition [A.D. 251]).

"Cyprian to [Pope] Cornelius, his brother. Greeting. . . . We decided to send and are sending a letter to you from all throughout the province [where I am] so that all our colleagues might give their decided approval and support to you and to your communion, that is, to both the unity and the charity of the Catholic Church" (Letters 48:1, 3 [A.D. 253]).

"Cyprian to Antonian, his brother. Greeting ... You wrote ... that I should forward a copy of the same letter to our colleague [Pope] Cornelius, so that, laying aside all anxiety, he might at once know that you held communion with him, that is, with the Catholic Church" (ibid., 55[52]:1).

"Cornelius was made bishop by the decision of God and of his Christ, by the testimony of almost all the clergy, by the applause of the people then present, by the college of venerable priests and good men ... when the place of Fabian, which is the place of Peter, the dignity of the sacerdotal chair, was vacant. Since it has been occupied both at the will of God and with the ratified consent of all of us, whoever now wishes to become bishop must do so outside [the Church]. For he cannot have ecclesiastical rank who does not hold to the unity of the Church" (ibid., 55[52]:8).

"With a false bishop appointed for themselves by heretics, they dare even to set sail and carry letters from schismatics and blasphemers to the chair of Peter and to the principal church [at Rome], in which sacerdotal unity has its source" (ibid., 59:14).


Firmilian



"[Pope] Stephen ... boasts of the place of his episcopate, and contends that he holds the succession from Peter, on whom the foundations of the Church were laid [Matt. 16:18]. ... Stephen ... announces that he holds by succession the throne of Peter" (collected in Cyprian’s Letters 74[75]:17 [A.D. 253]).


Pope Julius I



"[The] judgment [concerning Athanasius] ought to have been made, not as it was, but according to the ecclesiastical canon. It behooved all of you to write us so that the justice of it might be seen as emanating from all. ... Are you ignorant that the custom has been to write first to us and then for a just decision to be passed from this place [Rome]? If, then, any such suspicion rested upon the bishop there [Athanasius of Alexandria], notice of it ought to have been written to the church here. But now, after having done as they pleased, they want to obtain our concurrence, although we never condemned him. Not thus are the constitutions of Paul, not thus the traditions of the Fathers. This is another form of procedure, and a novel practice. ... What I write about this is for the common good. For what we have heard from the blessed apostle Peter, these things I signify to you" (Letter on Behalf of Athanasius [A.D. 341], in Athanasius, Apology Against the Arians 20–35).




Tatian the Syrian



"Simon Cephas answered and said, ‘You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.’ Jesus answered and said unto him, ‘Blessed are you, Simon, son of Jonah: flesh and blood has not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say unto thee also, that you are Cephas, and on this rock will I build my Church; and the gates of hades shall not prevail against it" (The Diatesseron 23 [A.D. 170]).


Tertullian



"Was anything withheld from the knowledge of Peter, who is called ‘the rock on which the Church would be built’ [Matt. 16:18] with the power of ‘loosing and binding in heaven and on earth’ [Matt. 16:19]?" (Demurrer Against the Heretics 22 [A.D. 200]).

"[T]he Lord said to Peter, ‘On this rock I will build my Church, I have given you the keys of the kingdom of heaven [and] whatever you shall have bound or loosed on earth will be bound or loosed in heaven’ [Matt. 16:18–19]. . . . What kind of man are you, subverting and changing what was the manifest intent of the Lord when he conferred this personally upon Peter? Upon you, he says, I will build my Church; and I will give to you the keys" (Modesty 21:9–10 [A.D. 220]).


The Letter of Clement to James



"Be it known to you, my lord, that Simon [Peter], who, for the sake of the true faith, and the most sure foundation of his doctrine, was set apart to be the foundation of the Church, and for this end was by Jesus himself, with his truthful mouth, named Peter" (Letter of Clement to James 2 [A.D. 221]).


The Clementine Homilies



"[Simon Peter said to Simon Magus in Rome:] ‘For you now stand in direct opposition to me, who am a firm rock, the foundation of the Church’ [Matt. 16:18]" (Clementine Homilies 17:19 [A.D. 221]).


Origen



"Look at [Peter], the great foundation of the Church, that most solid of rocks, upon whom Christ built the Church [Matt. 16:18]. And what does our Lord say to him? ‘Oh you of little faith,’ he says, ‘why do you doubt?’ [Matt. 14:31]" (Homilies on Exodus 5:4 [A.D. 248]).


Cyprian of Carthage



"The Lord says to Peter: ‘I say to you,’ he says, ‘that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not overcome it. And to you I will give the keys of the kingdom of heaven . . . ’ [Matt. 16:18–19]. On him [Peter] he builds the Church, and to him he gives the command to feed the sheep [John 21:17], and although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single chair [cathedra], and he established by his own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were that also which Peter was [i.e., apostles], but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. . . . If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he [should] desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?" (The Unity of the Catholic Church 4; 1st edition [A.D. 251]).

"There is one God and one Christ, and one Church, and one chair founded on Peter by the word of the Lord. It is not possible to set up another altar or for there to be another priesthood besides that one altar and that one priesthood. Whoever has gathered elsewhere is scattering" (Letters 43[40]:5 [A.D. 253]).

"There [John 6:68–69] speaks Peter, upon whom the Church would be built, teaching in the name of the Church and showing that even if a stubborn and proud multitude withdraws because it does not wish to obey, yet the Church does not withdraw from Christ. The people joined to the priest and the flock clinging to their shepherd are the Church. You ought to know, then, that the bishop is in the Church and the Church in the bishop, and if someone is not with the bishop, he is not in the Church. They vainly flatter themselves who creep up, not having peace with the priests of God, believing that they are
secretly [i.e., invisibly] in communion with certain individuals. For the Church, which is one and Catholic, is not split nor divided, but it is indeed united and joined by the cement of priests who adhere one to another" (ibid., 66[69]:8).


Firmilian



"But what is his error . . . who does not remain on the foundation of the one Church which was founded upon the rock by Christ [Matt. 16:18], can be learned from this, which Christ said to Peter alone: ‘Whatever things you shall bind on earth shall be bound also in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth, they shall be loosed in heaven’ [Matt. 16:19]" (collected in Cyprian’s Letters 74[75]:16 [A.D. 253]).

"[Pope] Stephen [I] . . . boasts of the place of his episcopate, and contends that he holds the succession from Peter, on whom the foundations of the Church were laid [Matt. 16:18]. . . . [Pope] Stephen . . . announces that he holds by succession the throne of Peter" (ibid., 74[75]:17).


Ephraim the Syrian



"[Jesus said:] ‘Simon, my follower, I have made you the foundation of the holy Church. I betimes called you Peter, because you will support all its buildings. You are the inspector of those who will build on earth a Church for me. If they should wish to build what is false, you, the foundation, will condemn them. You are the head of the fountain from which my teaching flows; you are the chief of my disciples’" (Homilies 4:1 [A.D. 351]).


Optatus



"You cannot deny that you are aware that in the city of Rome the episcopal chair was given first to Peter; the chair in which Peter sat, the same who was head—that is why he is also called Cephas [‘Rock’]—of all the apostles; the one chair in which unity is maintained by all" (The Schism of the Donatists 2:2 [A.D. 367]).


Ambrose of Milan



"[Christ] made answer: ‘You are Peter, and upon this rock will I build my Church. . . . ’ Could he not, then, strengthen the faith of the man to whom, acting on his own authority, he gave the kingdom, whom he called the rock, thereby declaring him to be the foundation of the Church [Matt. 16:18]?" (The Faith 4:5 [A.D. 379]).

"It is to Peter that he says: ‘You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church’ [Matt. 16:18]. Where Peter is, there is the Church. And where the Church is, no death is there, but life eternal" (Commentary on Twelve Psalms of David 40:30 [A.D. 389]).


Pope Damasus I



"Likewise it is decreed . . . that it ought to be announced that . . . the holy Roman Church has not been placed at the forefront [of the churches] by the conciliar decisions of other churches, but has received the primacy by the evangelic voice of our Lord and Savior, who says: ‘You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it; and I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. . . . ’ [Matt. 16:18–19]. The first see, therefore, is that of Peter the apostle, that of the Roman Church, which has neither stain nor blemish nor anything like it" (Decree of Damasus 3 [A.D. 382]).


Jerome



"‘But,’ you [Jovinian] will say, ‘it was on Peter that the Church was founded’ [Matt. 16:18]. Well . . . one among the twelve is chosen to be their head in order to remove any occasion for division" (Against Jovinian 1:26 [A.D. 393]).

"I follow no leader but Christ and join in communion with none but your blessedness [Pope Damasus I], that is, with the chair of Peter. I know that this is the rock on which the Church has been built. Whoever eats the Lamb outside this house is profane. Anyone who is not in the ark of Noah will perish when the flood prevails" (Letters 15:2 [A.D. 396]).


Augustine



"If the very order of episcopal succession is to be considered, how much more surely, truly, and safely do we number them [the bishops of Rome] from Peter himself, to whom, as to one representing the whole Church, the Lord said, ‘Upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not conquer it.’ Peter was succeeded by Linus, Linus by Clement. ... In this order of succession a Donatist bishop is not to be found" (Letters 53:1:2 [A.D. 412]).


Council of Ephesus



"Philip, the presbyter and legate of the Apostolic See [Rome], said: ‘There is no doubt, and in fact it has been known in all ages, that the holy and most blessed Peter, prince and head of the apostles, pillar of the faith, and foundation of the Catholic Church, received the keys of the kingdom from our Lord Jesus Christ, the Savior and Redeemer of the human race, and that to him was given the power of loosing and binding sins: who down even to today and forever both lives and judges in his successors’" (Acts of the Council, session 3 [A.D. 431]).


Sechnall of Ireland



"Steadfast in the fear of God, and in faith immovable, upon [Patrick] as upon Peter the [Irish] church is built; and he has been allotted his apostleship by God; against him the gates of hell prevail not" (Hymn in Praise of St. Patrick 3 [A.D. 444]).


Pope Leo I



"Our Lord Jesus Christ . . . has placed the principal charge on the blessed Peter, chief of all the apostles. . . . He wished him who had been received into partnership in his undivided unity to be named what he himself was, when he said: ‘You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church’ [Matt. 16:18], that the building of the eternal temple might rest on Peter’s solid rock, strengthening his Church so surely that neither could human rashness assail it nor the gates of hell prevail against it" (Letters 10:1 [A.D. 445]).


Council of Chalcedon



"Wherefore the most holy and blessed Leo, archbishop of the great and elder Rome, through us, and through this present most holy synod, together with the thrice blessed and all-glorious Peter the apostle, who is the rock and foundation of the Catholic Church, and the foundation of the orthodox faith, has stripped him [Dioscorus] of the episcopate" (Acts of the Council, session 3 [A.D. 451]).



Pope Clement I



"Through countryside and city [the apostles] preached, and they appointed their earliest converts, testing them by the Spirit, to be the bishops and deacons of future believers. Nor was this a novelty, for bishops and deacons had been written about a long time earlier. . . . Our apostles knew through our Lord Jesus Christ that there would be strife for the office of bishop. For this reason, therefore, having received perfect foreknowledge, they appointed those who have already been mentioned and afterwards added the further provision that, if they should die, other approved men should succeed to their ministry" (Letter to the Corinthians 42:4–5, 44:1–3 [A.D. 80]).


Hegesippus



"When I had come to Rome, I [visited] Anicetus, whose deacon was Eleutherus. And after Anicetus [died], Soter succeeded, and after him Eleutherus. In each succession and in each city there is a continuance of that which is proclaimed by the law, the prophets, and the Lord" (Memoirs, cited in Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History 4:22 [A.D. 180]).


Irenaeus



"It is possible, then, for everyone in every church, who may wish to know the truth, to contemplate the tradition of the apostles which has been made known to us throughout the whole world. And we are in a position to enumerate those who were instituted bishops by the apostles and their successors down to our own times, men who neither knew nor taught anything like what these heretics rave about" (Against Heresies 3:3:1 [A.D. 189]).

"But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the successions of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul—that church which has the tradition and the faith with which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. For with this Church, because of its superior origin, all churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world. And it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition" (ibid., 3:3:2).

"Polycarp also was not only instructed by apostles, and conversed with many who had seen Christ, but was also, by apostles in Asia, appointed bishop of the church in Smyrna, whom I also saw in my early youth, for he tarried [on earth] a very long time, and, when a very old man, gloriously and most nobly suffering martyrdom, departed this life, having always taught the things which he had learned from the apostles, and which the Church has handed down, and which alone are true. To these things all the Asiatic churches testify, as do also those men who have succeeded Polycarp down to the present time" (ibid., 3:3:4).

"Since therefore we have such proofs, it is not necessary to seek the truth among others which it is easy to obtain from the Church; since the apostles, like a rich man [depositing his money] in a bank, lodged in her hands most copiously all things pertaining to the truth, so that every man, whosoever will, can draw from her the water of life. . . . For how stands the case? Suppose there arise a dispute relative to some important question among us, should we not have recourse to the most ancient churches with which the apostles held constant conversation, and learn from them what is certain and clear in regard to the present question?" (ibid., 3:4:1).

"[I]t is incumbent to obey the presbyters who are in the Church—those who, as I have shown, possess the succession from the apostles; those who, together with the succession of the episcopate, have received the infallible charism of truth, according to the good pleasure of the Father. But [it is also incumbent] to hold in suspicion others who depart from the primitive succession, and assemble themselves together in any place whatsoever, either as heretics of perverse minds, or as schismatics puffed up and self-pleasing, or again as hypocrites, acting thus for the sake of lucre and vainglory. For all these have fallen from the truth" (ibid., 4:26:2).

"The true knowledge is the doctrine of the apostles, and the ancient organization of the Church throughout the whole world, and the manifestation of the body of Christ according to the succession of bishops, by which succession the bishops have handed down the Church which is found everywhere" (ibid., 4:33:8).


Tertullian



"[The apostles] founded churches in every city, from which all the other churches, one after another, derived the tradition of the faith, and the seeds of doctrine, and are every day deriving them, that they may become churches. Indeed, it is on this account only that they will be able to deem themselves apostolic, as being the offspring of apostolic churches. Every sort of thing must necessarily revert to its original for its classification. Therefore the churches, although they are so many and so great, comprise but the one primitive Church, [founded] by the apostles, from which they all [spring]. In this way, all are primitive, and all are apostolic, while they are all proved to be one in unity" (Demurrer Against the Heretics 20 [A.D. 200]).

"[W]hat it was which Christ revealed to them [the apostles] can, as I must here likewise prescribe, properly be proved in no other way than by those very churches which the apostles founded in person, by declaring the gospel to them directly themselves . . . If then these things are so, it is in the same degree manifest that all doctrine which agrees with the apostolic churches—those molds and original sources of the faith must be reckoned for truth, as undoubtedly containing that which the churches received from the apostles, the apostles from Christ, [and] Christ from God. Whereas all doctrine must be prejudged as false which savors of contrariety to the truth of the churches and apostles of Christ and God. It remains, then, that we demonstrate whether this doctrine of ours, of which we have now given the rule, has its origin in the tradition of the apostles, and whether all other doctrines do not ipso facto proceed from falsehood" (ibid., 21).

"But if there be any [heresies] which are bold enough to plant [their origin] in the midst of the apostolic age, that they may thereby seem to have been handed down by the apostles, because they existed in the time of the apostles, we can say: Let them produce the original records of their churches; let them unfold the roll of their bishops, running down in due succession from the beginning in such a manner that [their first] bishop shall be able to show for his ordainer and predecessor some one of the apostles or of apostolic men—a man, moreover, who continued steadfast with the apostles. For this is the manner in which the apostolic churches transmit their registers: as the church of Smyrna, which records that Polycarp was placed therein by John; as also the church of Rome, which makes Clement to have been ordained in like manner by Peter" (ibid., 32).

"But should they even effect the contrivance [of composing a succession list for themselves], they will not advance a step. For their very doctrine, after comparison with that of the apostles [as contained in other churches], will declare, by its own diversity and contrariety, that it had for its author neither an apostle nor an apostolic man; because, as the apostles would never have taught things which were self-contradictory" (ibid.).

"Then let all the heresies, when challenged to these two tests by our apostolic Church, offer their proof of how they deem themselves to be apostolic. But in truth they neither are so, nor are they able to prove themselves to be what they are not. Nor are they admitted to peaceful relations and communion by such churches as are in any way connected with apostles, inasmuch as they are in no sense themselves apostolic because of their diversity as to the mysteries of the faith" (ibid.).


Cyprian of Carthage



"[T]he Church is one, and as she is one, cannot be both within and without. For if she is with [the heretic] Novatian, she was not with [Pope] Cornelius. But if she was with Cornelius, who succeeded the bishop [of Rome], Fabian, by lawful ordination, and whom, beside the honor of the priesthood the Lord glorified also with martyrdom, Novatian is not in the Church; nor can he be reckoned as a bishop, who, succeeding to no one, and despising the evangelical and apostolic tradition, sprang from himself. For he who has not been ordained in the Church can neither have nor hold to the Church in any way" (Letters 69[75]:3 [A.D. 253]).


Jerome



"Far be it from me to speak adversely of any of these clergy who, in succession from the apostles, confect by their sacred word the Body of Christ and through whose efforts also it is that we are Christians" (Letters 14:8 [A.D. 396]).


Augustine



"[T]here are many other things which most properly can keep me in [the Catholic Church’s] bosom. The unanimity of peoples and nations keeps me here. Her authority, inaugurated in miracles, nourished by hope, augmented by love, and confirmed by her age, keeps me here. The succession of priests, from the very see of the apostle Peter, to whom the Lord, after his resurrection, gave the charge of feeding his sheep [John 21:15–17], up to the present episcopate, keeps me here. And last, the very name Catholic, which, not without reason, belongs to this Church alone, in the face of so many heretics, so much so that, although all heretics want to be called ‘Catholic,’ when a stranger inquires where the Catholic Church meets, none of the heretics would dare to point out his own basilica or house" (Against the Letter of Mani Called "The Foundation" 4:5 [A.D. 397]).


Peter's Successors


In other Fathers Know Best tracts we have shown that the Fathers recognized Peter as the rock on which Jesus declared he would build his Church; that this gave Peter a special primacy; and that Peter traveled to Rome, where he was martyred. In this tract we will show that the Fathers also recognized that Peter ordained a successor to his episcopacy in Rome and that the bishop of Rome—the pope—continued to serve in Peter’s role in subsequent generations of the Church.


Irenaeus



"The blessed apostles [Peter and Paul], having founded and built up the church [of Rome] . . . handed over the office of the episcopate to Linus" (Against Heresies 3:3:3 [A.D. 189]).


Tertullian



"[T]his is the way in which the apostolic churches transmit their lists: like the church of the Smyrneans, which records that Polycarp was placed there by John, like the church of the Romans, where Clement was ordained by Peter" (Demurrer Against the Heretics 32:2 [A.D. 200]).


The Little Labyrinth



"Victor . . . was the thirteenth bishop of Rome from Peter" (The Little Labyrinth [A.D. 211], in Eusebius, Church History 5:28:3).


Cyprian of Carthage



"The Lord says to Peter: ‘I say to you,’ he says, ‘that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not overcome it. ... ’ [Matt. 16:18]. On him [Peter] he builds the Church, and to him he gives the command to feed the sheep [John 21:17], and although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single chair [cathedra], and he established by his own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. . . . If someone [today] does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he [should] desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?" (The Unity of the Catholic Church 4; first edition [A.D. 251]).

"Cornelius was made bishop by the decision of God and of his Christ, by the testimony of almost all the clergy, by the applause of the people then present, by the college of venerable priests and good men, at a time when no one had been made [bishop] before him—when the place of [Pope] Fabian, which is the place of Peter, the dignity of the sacerdotal chair, was vacant. Since it has been occupied both at the will of God and with the ratified consent of all of us, whoever now wishes to become bishop must do so outside. For he cannot have ecclesiastical rank who does not hold to the unity of the Church" (Letters 55:[52]):8 [A.D. 253]).

"With a false bishop appointed for themselves by heretics, they dare even to set sail and carry letters from schismatics and blasphemers to the chair of Peter and to the principal church [at Rome], in which sacerdotal unity has its source" (ibid., 59:14).


Eusebius of Caesarea



"Paul testifies that Crescens was sent to Gaul [2 Tim. 4:10], but Linus, whom he mentions in the Second Epistle to Timothy [2 Tim. 4:21] as his companion at Rome, was Peter’s successor in the episcopate of the church there, as has already been shown. Clement also, who was appointed third bishop of the church at Rome, was, as Paul testifies, his co-laborer and fellow-soldier [Phil. 4:3]" (Church History 3:4:9–10 [A.D. 312]).


Pope Julius I



"[The] judgment [against Athanasius] ought to have been made, not as it was, but according to the ecclesiastical canon. . . . Are you ignorant that the custom has been to write first to us and then for a just decision to be passed from this place [Rome]? If, then, any such suspicion rested upon the bishop there [Athanasius of Alexandria], notice of it ought to have been written to the church here. But now, after having done as they pleased, they want to obtain our concurrence, although we never condemned him. Not thus are the constitutions of Paul, not thus the traditions of the Fathers. This is another form of procedure, and a novel practice. . . . What I write about this is for the common good. For what we have heard from the blessed apostle Peter, these things I signify to you" (Letter on Behalf of Athanasius [A.D. 341], contained in Athanasius, Apology Against the Arians 20–35).


Council of Sardica



"[I]f any bishop loses the judgment in some case [decided by his fellow bishops] and still believes that he has not a bad but a good case, in order that the case may be judged anew . . . let us honor the memory of the apostle Peter by having those who have given the judgment write to Julius, bishop of Rome, so that if it seem proper he may himself send arbiters and the judgment may be made again by the bishops of a neighboring province" (Canon 3 [A.D. 342]).


Optatus



"You cannot deny that you are aware that in the city of Rome the episcopal chair was given first to Peter; the chair in which Peter sat, the same who was head—that is why he is also called Cephas [‘Rock’]—of all the apostles; the one chair in which unity is maintained by all" (The Schism of the Donatists 2:2 [A.D. 367]).


Epiphanius of Salamis



"At Rome the first apostles and bishops were Peter and Paul, then Linus, then Cletus, then Clement, the contemporary of Peter and Paul" (Medicine Chest Against All Heresies 27:6 [A.D. 375]).


Pope Damasus I



"Likewise it is decreed: . . . [W]e have considered that it ought to be announced that . . . the holy Roman Church has been placed at the forefront not by the conciliar decisions of other churches, but has received the primacy by the evangelic voice of our Lord and Savior, who says: ‘You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it; and I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you shall have bound on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you shall have loosed on earth shall be loosed in heaven’ [Matt. 16:18–19]. The first see [today], therefore, is that of Peter the apostle, that of the Roman Church, which has neither stain nor blemish nor anything like it" (Decree of Damasus 3 [A.D. 382]).


Jerome



"[Pope] Stephen . . . was the blessed Peter’s twenty-second successor in the See of Rome" (Against the Luciferians 23 [A.D. 383]).

"Clement, of whom the apostle Paul writing to the Philippians says ‘With Clement and others of my fellow-workers whose names are written in the book of life,’ the fourth bishop of Rome after Peter, if indeed the second was Linus and the third Anacletus, although most of the Latins think that Clement was second after the apostle" (Lives of Illustrious Men 15 [A.D. 396]).

"Since the East, shattered as it is by the long-standing feuds, subsisting between its peoples, is bit by bit tearing into shreds the seamless vest of the Lord . . . I think it my duty to consult the chair of Peter, and to turn to a church [Rome] whose faith has been praised by Paul [Rom. 1:8]. I appeal for spiritual food to the church whence I have received the garb of Christ. . . . Evil children have squandered their patrimony; you alone keep your heritage intact" (Letters 15:1 [A.D. 396]).

...

"I follow no leader but Christ and join in communion with none but your blessedness [Pope Damasus I], that is, with the chair of Peter. I know that this is the rock on which the Church has been built. Whoever eats the Lamb outside this house is profane. Anyone who is not in the ark of Noah will perish when the flood prevails" (ibid., 15:2).

"The church here is split into three parts, each eager to seize me for its own. . . . Meanwhile I keep crying, ‘He that is joined to the chair of Peter is accepted by me!’ . . . Therefore, I implore your blessedness [Pope Damasus I] . . . tell me by letter with whom it is that I should communicate in Syria" (ibid., 16:2).


Ambrose of Milan



"[T]hey [the Novatian heretics] have not the succession of Peter, who hold not the chair of Peter, which they rend by wicked schism; and this, too, they do, wickedly denying that sins can be forgiven [by the sacrament of confession] even in the Church, whereas it was said to Peter: ‘I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound also in heaven, and whatsoever thou shall loose on earth shall be loosed also in heaven’[Matt. 16:19]" (Penance 1:7:33 [A.D. 388]).


Augustine



"If all men throughout the world were such as you most vainly accuse them of having been, what has the chair of the Roman church done to you, in which Peter sat, and in which Anastasius sits today?" (Against the Letters of Petilani 2:118 [A.D. 402]).

"If the very order of episcopal succession is to be considered, how much more surely, truly, and safely do we number them from Peter himself, to whom, as to one representing the whole Church, the Lord said, ‘Upon this rock I will build my Church’ . . . [Matt. 16:18]. Peter was succeeded by Linus, Linus by Clement, Clement by Anacletus, Anacletus by Evaristus . . . " (Letters 53:1:2 [A.D. 412]).


Council of Ephesus



"Philip the presbyter and legate of the Apostolic See said: ‘There is no doubt, and in fact it has been known in all ages, that the holy and most blessed Peter, prince and head of the apostles, pillar of the faith, and foundation of the Catholic Church, received the keys of the kingdom from our Lord Jesus Christ, the Savior and Redeemer of the human race, and that to him was given the power of loosing and binding sins: who down even to today and forever both lives and judges in his successors. The holy and most blessed pope Celestine, according to due order, is his successor and holds his place, and us he sent to supply his place in this holy synod’" (Acts of the Council, session 3 [A.D. 431]).


Pope Leo I



"As for the resolution of the bishops which is contrary to the Nicene decree, in union with your faithful piety, I declare it to be invalid and annul it by the authority of the holy apostle Peter" (Letters 110 [A.D. 445]).

"Whereupon the blessed Peter, as inspired by God, and about to benefit all nations by his confession, said, ‘You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.’ Not undeservedly, therefore, was he pronounced blessed by the Lord, and derived from the original Rock that solidity which belonged both to his virtue and to his name [Peter]" (The Tome of Leo [A.D. 449]).


Peter Chrysologus



"We exhort you in every respect, honorable brother, to heed obediently what has been written by the most blessed pope of the city of Rome, for blessed Peter, who lives and presides in his own see, provides the truth of faith to those who seek it. For we, by reason of our pursuit of peace and faith, cannot try cases on the faith without the consent of the bishop of Rome" (Letters 25:2 [A.D. 449]).


Council of Chalcedon



"After the reading of the foregoing epistle [The Tome of Leo], the most reverend bishops cried out: ‘This is the faith of the fathers! This is the faith of the apostles! So we all believe! Thus the orthodox believe! Anathema to him who does not thus believe! Peter has spoken thus through Leo! . . . This is the true faith! Those of us who are orthodox thus believe! This is the faith of the Fathers!’" (Acts of the Council, session 2 [A.D. 451]).




...http://www.catholic.com/library/church_papacy.asp


God Bless,
ironmonk

[William Putnam]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Aug 30 2004, 10:02 AM']Please get the historical facts...

.............<abridged to save space>..............

...http://www.catholic.com/library/church_papacy.asp


God Bless,
ironmonk[/quote]
Ironmonk,

Not to discourage you or anything, but I have been shouting the writings of the early fathers for nearly 20 years now in defense of the Church. And perhaps I am only seeing the responses of others who simply want to discount them, you see, because it "ain't bible." In other words, history apparently stopped when ink [i]last[/i] touched papyrus in the writing of the New Testament. Nothing further can be done by decree of the Church after that, the bible suppposedly "has it all" (the early father's writings are non-scriptural, in error or otherwise simply hyped preservations/forgeries/fakes, etc., of that devious Catholic Church in supporting her agenda! I'm not kidding, that is typical of the responses I have gotten!

The clear evidence of the early fathers simply cannot be refuted, therefore, they are simply ignored for the most part. There have been serious attempts to prove "their point" from the fathers to pitifully no avail, St. Augustine being an example.

But there is hope: Perhaps others who have an open mind to the truth, will read them and decide where the truth lies, you and I never hearing from them in their decisions...

Come holy Spirit...

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


[i]Jesus said unto them, "And whom do you say that I am?" They replied, "You are the eschatological ground of our being, the ontological foundation of the context of our very selfhood." And Jesus replied, "What?"[/i]

Edited August 30, 2004 by William Putnam

[Anna]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' date='Aug 30 2004, 11:43 AM'] a little taste of what's to come.
the proof is IN the pudding... [/quote]
Which explains why your pudding always tastes like male bovine excrement. :deformed:

Edited August 30, 2004 by Anna

[Anna]

You can offer the writings of the Early Church Fathers for the benefit of lurkers and phatMassers alike, but doubtful that dairygirl will take the time to read anything beneficial or profitable to her soul. She is far too busy trying to dig up some crud on the Church, and she doesn't really care if her sources are far less credible than Clement, Hermas, Ignatius, Irenaenus, Dionysius, Eusebius, Cyprian, and all the others combined. Her ends justify her means, and her end is to [b]trash the Church[/b].

[William Putnam]

[quote name='Anna' date='Aug 30 2004, 12:29 PM']You can offer the writings of the Early Church Fathers for the benefit of lurkers and phatMassers alike, but doubtful that dairygirl will take the time to read anything beneficial or profitable to her soul.  She is far too busy trying to dig up some crud on the Church, and she doesn't really care if her sources are far less credible than Clement, Hermas, Ignatius, Irenaenus, Dionysius, Eusebius, Cyprian, and all the others combined.  Her ends justify her means, and her end is to [b]trash the Church[/b].  [/quote]
Since I am quite new to this forum, I will withhold comment about dairygirl until she returns to her own thread and react to what was quoted by ironmonk of the early church fathers.

I will be curious about what she will say...

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+



[i]Blest be God.
Blest be his holy name.
Blest be Jesus Christ, true God and true man.
Blest be the name of Jesus.
Blest be his most sacred heart.
Blest be his most precious blood.
Blest be Jesus in the most holy sacrament of the altar.
Blest be the Holy Spirit, the Consoler.
Blest be the great Mother of God, Mary most holy.
Blest be her holy and immaculate conception.
Blest be her glorious assumption.
Blest be the name of Mary, virgin and mother.
Blest be Saint Joseph, her most chaste spouse.
Blest be God in his angels and in his saints.[/i]

- [b][u]The Divine Praises[/u][/b] -

Edited August 30, 2004 by William Putnam

[Oik]

The most ineteresting question is first this, if it is sola scriptura, then who decided on which book went into the Protestant Bible. The answer: a man. The Catholic Church enjoys the fullness of Truth, we have the Authority given by God.

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote]I am only seeing the responses of others who simply want to discount them, you see, because it "ain't bible."[/quote]

We're not all extreme fundamentalists. Remember not to be bound by the either/or mentality or you'll be stuck forever.


I could argue that there were many interpretations from the early church for Peter's successor's being Pope as the Catholic Church today understands it, but I don't even have to go that far.

All I have to do is point out those quotes being in the context of a large and influential church. Read them in that context.

Remeber no one uses Firmilian because it is acknowleged by everyone knowledgeable that he is explicitly against the papacy. Or more accurately he is against an arrogant bishop of rome. To use him over and over again is intellectually dishonest.

And I think to never acknowledge the large and influential theory is pretty intellectually dishonest. I mean show how this can not be the case, not just drop text quotes.

Remember, facts don't always speak for themselves. Just think about science. Think about bible interpretations.. works for early church too.

Remeber all the times I've shown Cyprian was not. He did not get along with the bishop of rome. Then that bishop died and he got along with the successor.

Remember Augustine thought of the "on this rock" verse as Peter's confession of faith. Probably acknowledged by the Catholic Church, but it shows the subtle deciet the Catholic Church has built itself on.

Finally, remember the defalse decretals that the middleage used to finally establish the Catholic Church. The forgeries that Aquanis had been duped to use to defend the papacy.

If he or any of you would read the other quotes differently, you'd see. Start at the top. Read it for large and influential. If it works that way, discount it. If it's firmilian or cyprian, discount them.

I'll get more on the decretals. And cyprian if you all want.
[url="http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/decretals.aspx"]http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/decretals.aspx[/url]

Edited August 30, 2004 by dairygirl4u2c

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote]"The forgeries that Aquanis had been duped to use to defend the papacy."[/quote]

I think that the Jesuits duped him. They're always up to no good!

This subject could be the beginnings of another Jack Chick comic!

I love a good conspiracy theory...

Edited August 30, 2004 by Mateo el Feo

[ironmonk]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' date='Aug 30 2004, 03:45 PM']
We're not all extreme fundamentalists. Remember not to be bound by the either/or mentality or you'll be stuck forever.


I could argue that there were many interpretations from the early church for Peter's successor's being Pope as the Catholic Church today understands it, but I don't even have to go that far.

All I have to do is point out those quotes being in the context of a large and influential church. Read them in that context.

Remeber no one uses Firmilian because it is acknowleged by everyone knowledgeable that he is explicitly against the papacy. Or more accurately he is against an arrogant bishop of rome. To use him over and over again is intellectually dishonest.

And I think to never acknowledge the large and influential theory is pretty intellectually dishonest. I mean show how this can not be the case, not just drop text quotes.

Remember, facts don't always speak for themselves. Just think about science. Think about bible interpretations.. works for early church too.

Remeber all the times I've shown Cyprian was not. He did not get along with the bishop of rome. Then that bishop died and he got along with the successor.

Remember Augustine thought of the "on this rock" verse as Peter's confession of faith. Probably acknowledged by the Catholic Church, but it shows the subtle deciet the Catholic Church has built itself on.

Finally, remember the defalse decretals that the middleage used to finally establish the Catholic Church. The forgeries that Aquanis had been duped to use to defend the papacy.

If he or any of you would read the other quotes differently, you'd see. Start at the top. Read it for large and influential. If it works that way, discount it. If it's firmilian or cyprian, discount them.

I'll get more on the decretals. And cyprian if you all want.
[url="http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/decretals.aspx"]http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/decretals.aspx[/url] [/quote]
The Catholic Church was not always large and influential... You have much study to do in regards to history. Rome was trying to destroy the Church. Thousands of Catholics were killed until the 300's.

There is no grounds for interpretation issues because the Catholic Church is the One Faith built by Christ.

You fail to realize that the Catholic Church had and has the authority to determine canon of scripture.

You would not have the NT if it wasn't for the Catholic Church.

Christ built One Faith (Eph 4:5)... For the Church to be the Pillar and Foundation of Truth (1 Tim 3:15) the only answer is the Catholic Church.

Firmilian learned of the Christianity from the Catholic Church, letters to him where to correct his error... his views where wrong. The Catholic Church had a right and authority to correct him because they taught him. Firmilian was not keeping to the faith taught by the apostles.

Yes, you do need to go back that far and use logic when examining the ECF writings. You must go to the first source of Christian teachings to understand it properly, which you fail to do if you go to Firmilian.

God Bless,
ironmonk

Edited August 30, 2004 by ironmonk

[Anna]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' date='Aug 30 2004, 03:45 PM']
We're not all extreme fundamentalists. Remember not to be bound by the either/or mentality or you'll be stuck forever. [/quote]
Either something is True, or it is False. Guess I'm stuck forever.
[quote]I could argue that there were many interpretations from the early church for Peter's successor's being Pope, but I don't even have to go that far.[/quote]
Yes, you do have to go that far.
If the Apostles believed Peter to be the visible head of the newly formed visible Church, and the Early Church Fathers also believed this to be so, then how can you discount the authenticity of the papacy as the authority established by Jesus?
[quote]All I have to do is point out those quotes being in the context of a large and influential church. Read them in that context.[/quote]Right. All you have to do is take them out of the context in which they were written. The Early Church Fathers and the Apostles weren't writing to a large, influencial Church, were they? Because the Church was neither large, nor influential back then, was it?
[quote]Remeber no one uses Firmilian because it is acknowleged by everyone knowledgeable that he is explicitly against the papacy. Or more accurately he is against an arrogant bishop of rome. To use him over and over again is intellectually dishonest. [/quote]Do you really want to lecture us on intellectual dishonesty, dairygirl? I could link you to more than a few of your own past posts. It doesn't matter if Firmilian "got along with" a pope or not. That in no way establishes that the papacy is errant, only that Firmilian was! (As we all are) If Firmilian was as anti-papacy as you claim, you, James White, and others would have declared him your patron saint by now.
[quote]And I think to never acknowledge the large and influential theory is pretty intellectually dishonest. I mean show how this can not be the case, not just drop text quotes.[/quote]I think I've shown how this isn't the case. But let me play along a bit...Our Church speaks, not from today's viewpoint, but from historical to present-day viewpoint, understanding our own history. You are asking us to look at our own writings from the flawed viewpoint of a modern-day self-styled young denomination, looking back in history, trying to find a loophole in order to shore up your argument. Why don't YOU try reading those writings from the viewpoint of a historical, small Church, established by Christ, with a particular hierarchical structure? Hmmmmm? In the interests of being intellectually honest...
[quote]Remember, facts don't always speak for themselves. Just think about science. Think about bible interpretations.. works for early church too. [/quote]When do facts not speak for themselves? I'm not following your vague logic here...
[quote]
Remeber all the times I've shown Cyprian was not. He did not get along with the bishop of rome. Then that bishop died and he got along with the successor.[/quote]Again, "getting along with" is not the same as "obedience to." Did you ever have a boss who you didn't get along with? Did that make him any less the boss? People have their differences, with authority figures as well as their subordinates. But some people are authority figures, and it matters not whether someone "got along" with them or not!
[quote] Remember Augustine thought of the "on this rock" verse as Peter's confession of faith. Probably acknowledged by the Catholic Church, but it shows the subtle deciet the Catholic Church has built itself on.[/quote]I guess you'll have to refresh me on this error of Augustine.
[b]Circa A.D. 391 – 430 – St. Augustine of Hippo: [color=red]"Before His suffering the Lord Jesus Christ, as you know, chose His disciples, whom He called Apostles. Among the Apostles almost everywhere Peter alone merited to represent the whole Church. For the sake of representing the whole Church, which he alone could do, he merited to hear: ‘I will give to you the keys to the kingdom of Heaven.’"[/color] [Sermons, qtd in Jurgens 1526][/b]
[quote]Finally, remember the defalse decretals that the middleage used to finally establish the Catholic Church. The forgeries that Aquanis had been duped to use to defend the papacy.[/quote]By the middle ages, the Church had already been in existence, papacy and all, for eight hundred years. The Catholic Church was established by Christ. We didn't need 9th century forgeries such as the Donation of Constantine to establish our existing Church or our existing papacy. Your history is flawed, or, in your own words, intellectually dishonest. These facts do speak for themselves. The Church and the papacy both existed long before the false decretals.
The false decretals, by the way, did nothing to substantiate the papacy~quite the opposite. Their purpose was more likely to "support the local bishops against their metropolitans and other authorities, so as to secure absolute impunity and the exclusion of all influence of the secular power." This Rock, 22 - October 1998
[quote]If he or any of you would read the other quotes differently, you'd see. Start at the top. Read it for large and influential. If it works that way, discount it. If it's firmilian or cyprian, discount them.[/quote]If it's dairygirl, discount them.
[quote]I'll get more on the decretals. And cyprian if you all want.
[url="http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/decretals.aspx"]http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/decretals.aspx[/url][/quote]Knock yourself out. While you're at it, have you read IronMonk's post? You haven't commented on all the other ECF he provided, and you've not effectively knocked out Firmilian nor Cyprian, imho.

Edited August 30, 2004 by Anna

[CatholicCrusader]

William Putnam,

Only Clergy are supposed to put a Cross after their signatures. I do not see you as a "Clergy" group, so I assume you are not. I believe a Bishop puts the Cross before his signature and a Priest puts it after his name.

[Cure of Ars]

[quote] Remember Augustine thought of the "on this rock" verse as Peter's confession of faith. Probably acknowledged by the Catholic Church, but it shows the subtle deciet the Catholic Church has built itself on.[/quote]


Common now, it sounds like to me that you have been reading some half-truths. It is true that St Augustine at times interpreted Matt 16 as referring to Peter’s faith. But he also at times interpreted this as referring to Peter himself. Also you need to keep in mind that the Papacy developed just like all the other Christian doctrines and because of this the papacy of St. Augustine’s time did not look exactly like the Papacy does now. But Augusine clearly believed that the successor of Peter had Primacy as bishop of Rome and that it was the final appeal in matters of doctrine. Here is some examples of Augustine interpreting Matt 16 as referring to Peter as the Rock.

[quote]"Why! a flower that is cut off from the vine retains its shape. But what use is that shape, if it is not living from the root? Come, brother, if you wish to be engrafted in the vine. It is grievous when we see you thus lying cut off. Number the =priests even from the seat of Peter=. And in that order of fathers see to whom succeeded: that[b] is the rock which the proud gates of hades do not conquer[/b]. All who rejoice in peace, only judge truly" (St. Augustine, Psalmus contra Pertem Donati) [/quote]



[quote]'Number the bishops from the See of Peter itself. And in that order of Fathers see who has succeeded whom, That is [b]the rock [/b]against which the gates of hell do not prevail' (St. Augustine, Ps C. partes Don 18) [/quote]

[quote]'For, if the order of the [b]Succession of bishops[/b] is to be considered, how much more surely, truly and safely do we number them from[b] Peter[/b], to whom, as representing the whole Church, the Lord said: [b]'Upon this rock will build my Church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it'(Matt 16:18)[/b]. For, to Peter succeeded Linus, to Linus Clement...to Julius Liberius, to Liberius Damasus, to Damasus Sircius, to Sircius Anastasius' (St. Augustine, Epis 53) [/quote]
[quote]'Peter...on account of the [b]primacy[/b] which he bore among the disciples'
(St. Augustine, Enarratio in Psalmum cviii)[/quote]

[quote]'It goes without saying that Augustine identifies the Church with the universal Catholic Church of his day, with its hierarchy and sacraments and with its center at Rome'  (Protestant Historian JND Kelly ECD pg 413) [/quote]

Also I do not appreciate your charge that the Catholic Church has intentionally lied about Augustine’s position on Matt 16. It is simply not true.

I would also check out this;

[b]Peter is "The Rock"[/b]

--[url="http://www.catholic-convert.com/Portals/57ad7180-c5e7-49f5-b282-c6475cdb7ee7/Documents/RockPeterOrConfession.doc"]Is Peter the Rock, or is the Rock only his Confession of Faith?[/url]
--[url="http://catholicoutlook.com/rock2.html"]Protestant Scholars Agree: Peter is the Rock[/url]



--[url="http://www.netacc.net/%7Emafg/peter01.htm"]Exegesis of Mat 16:18-19[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Peter_the_Rock.asp"]Peter the Rock[/url]
--[url="http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ170.HTM"]The Metaphor of Peter as "Rock"[/url]
--[url="http://www.envoymagazine.com/backissues/2.2/nutsandbolts.html"]Nuts & Bolts: The "Pebbles" argument goes down[/url]

Edited August 30, 2004 by Cure of Ars

[Anna]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' date='Aug 30 2004, 03:45 PM'] Remember Augustine thought of the "on this rock" verse as Peter's confession of faith. [/quote]
Here is what Augustine wrote, and you tell me if he thought [i]Peter's confession [/i]was the rock, or if [i]Peter was [/i]the rock:

“Number the bishops from the see of Peter itself. And in that order of Fathers see who succeeded whom, That is [b]the rock [/b]against which the gates of hell do not prevail.”

Psalmus contra partem Donati, 18 (A.D. 393),GCC 51

“Let us not listen to those who deny that the Church of God is able to forgive all sins. They are wretched indeed, because they do not recognize in [b]Peter the rock [/b]and they refuse to believe that the keys of heaven, lost from their own hands, have been given to the Church.”

Christian Combat, 31:33(A.D. 397), in JUR,3:51

“For if the lineal succession of bishops is to be taken into account, with how much more certainty and benefit to the Church do we reckon back till we reach Peter himself, to whom, as bearing in a figure the whole Church, the Lord said: ‘Upon this rock will I build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it !’ The successor of Peter was Linus, and his successors in unbroken continuity were these: -- Clement, Anacletus, Evaristus, Alexander, Sixtus, Telesphorus, Iginus, Anicetus, Pius, Soter, Eleutherius, Victor, Zephirinus, Calixtus, Urbanus, Pontianus, Antherus, Fabianus, Cornelius, Lucius, Stephanus, Xystus, Dionysius, Felix, Eutychianus, Gaius, Marcellinus, Marcellus, Eusebius, Miltiades, Sylvester, Marcus, Julius, Liberius, Damasus, and Siricius, whose successor is the present Bishop Anastasius. In this order of succession no Donatist bishop is found. But, reversing the natural course of things, the Donatists sent to Rome from Africa an ordained bishop, who, putting himself at the head of a few Africans in the great metropolis, gave some notoriety to the name of ‘mountain men,’ or Cutzupits, by which they were known.”

To Generosus, Epistle 53:2(A.D. 400), in NPNF1,I:298

“When, therefore, He had said to His disciples, ‘Will ye also go away?” [b]Peter, that Rock[/b], answered with the voice of all, “Lord, to whom shall we go? Thou hast the words of eternal life.’ “

Homilies on John, Tract 11:5(A.D. 417), in NPNF1,VII:76

“And the Lord, to him to whom a little before He had said, ‘Blessed thou art, and upon this Rock I will build my Church,’ saith, ‘Go back behind, Satan, an offence thou art to Me.’ Why therefore ‘Satan’ is he, that a little before [b]was ‘blessed,’ and a ‘Rock’[/b] ?”

In Psalms, 56[55]:14[PL 36, 656] (A.D. 418),in NPNF1,VIII:223

“Peter, who had confessed Him as the Son of God, and [i]in that confession [/i][/B]upon which the Church should be built.”

In Psalms, 69:4[PL 36, 869] (A.D. 418), in Butler, 251

“And if a Jew asks us why we do that, [b]we sound from the rock[/b], we say, This Peter did, this Paul did: from the midst of the rocks we give our voice. [b]But that rock, Peter himself[/b], that great mountain, when he prayed and saw that vision, was watered from above.”

Edited August 30, 2004 by Anna