"the Church"

[Guest]

what is "the church" ??
how can you say their is only one "church" ??
i think that is one of the most arrogant things catholic peeps say
how can you say that a church is not a church jus becuz its not catholic ??
does God support this ?? or does man ???
If you have Jesus in your heart by the spirit and live by His Word you have a continued supper in the body and blood of Christ. The works of the Spirit are not of man nor of the flesh, so says all the Word. You live by it only in spirit and truth. Its lived by every word that comes from the Lord by the Holy Spirit. This is how you eat His flesh and drink His blood, by the Word

Timothy 4-1
Now the spirt explicitly says that in the last times some will turn away from the faith by paying attention to decietful spirtis and demonic instructions through the hypocirsy of liars with branded consciences. THEY FORBID MARRIAGE
Tell me how that it is acceptable for a priest not to be allowed to be married ??? That is not biblical at all.

I work with disabled kids. One of the guys i work with, his father is a pastor in the church. This is a small country church. He lives a very humbel life. They have adopted children with special needs. Now you tell me how you could tell this man that his church is not a church of God ?? AND tell me how you can tell this man that their is no salvation outside of the catholic church. It is that kind of attitude that turns me away from the catholic faith so much

Romans 10-6
Do not say in your heart "Who will go up into heaven ? (that is to bring Christ down) or "Who will go down into the abyss?" (that is to bring Christ up from the dead) But what does it say ? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is the word of FAITH THAT WE PREACH) FOR IF YOU CONFESS WITH YOUR MOUTH THAT JESUS IS LORD AND BELIEVE IN YOUR HEART THAT GOD RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD, YOU WILL BE SAVED. FOR ONE BELIEVES WITH WITH THE HEART AND SO IS JUSTIFIED AND ONE CONFESSES WITH THE MOUTH AND SO IS SAVED. FOR THE SCRIPTURE SAYS, NO ONE WHO BELIVES IN HIM WILL BE PUT TO SHAME

This is how i feel. I love God, I love Jesus. I fall short so many times and i do have a love for the catholic church. Its the church i was baptised in. But there is noway (at least at this point of my life) I can agree when people say that their is no salvation outside the catholic church. And i cant agree when i hear a catholic say that they "ARE THE ONLY ONE TRUE CHRUCH"

PEACE

Edited August 30, 2004 by Guest

[dUSt]

Moved to Debate Table.

[Guest]

btw
this stemed from the musiz lounge conversation
it was in the topic about the chirstian rapper with a rosary
later

[dUSt]

[quote]what is "the church" ??
how can you say their is only one "church" ??
i think that is one of the most arrogant things catholic peeps say
how can you say that a church is not a church jus becuz its not catholic ??
does God support this ?? or does man ???[/quote]
So are you saying that Muslims, Jews, Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons, Baptists, etc are all part of the one true church? Or are you saying that all these churches are true?

[quote]If you have Jesus in your heart by the spirit and live by His Word you have a continued supper in the body and blood of Christ. The works of the Spirit are not of man nor of the flesh, so says all the Word. You live by it only in spirit and truth. Its lived by every word that comes from the Lord by the Holy Spirit. This is how you eat His flesh and drink His blood, by the Word[/quote]
I'm not understanding what you're saying here.

[quote]Timothy 4-1
Now the spirt explicitly says that in the last times some will turn away from the faith by paying attention to decietful spirtis and demonic instructions through the hypocirsy of liars with branded consciences. THEY FORBID MARRIAGE
Tell me how that it is acceptable for a priest not to be allowed to be married ??? That is not biblical at all.[/quote]
First of all, priests are married. Check their ring finger. They're married to the Church. And celibacy is VERY Biblical.

[quote]I work with disabled kids. One of the guys i work with, his father is a pastor in the church. This is a small country church. He lives a very humbel life. They have adopted children with special needs. Now you tell me how you could tell this man that his church is not a church of God ?? AND tell me how you can tell this man that their is no salvation outside of the catholic church. It is that kind of attitude that turns me away from the catholic faith so much[/quote]
If this man believes in Christ, he is part of the Catholic church. That seems welcoming, not arrogant.

It seems to me that you think if someone believes that they have the truth, they are arrogant.

Well, do you believe in God? So you mean to tell me that athiests and devil worshippers will not be in heaven? HOW ARROGANT!

[quote]Romans 10-6
Do not say in your heart "Who will go up into heaven ? (that is to bring Christ down) or "Who will go down into the abyss?" (that is to bring Christ up from the dead) But what does it say ? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is the word of FAITH THAT WE PREACH)  FOR IF YOU CONFESS WITH YOUR MOUTH THAT JESUS IS LORD AND BELIEVE IN YOUR HEART THAT GOD RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD, YOU WILL BE SAVED. FOR ONE BELIEVES WITH WITH THE HEART AND SO IS JUSTIFIED AND ONE CONFESSES WITH THE MOUTH AND SO IS SAVED. FOR THE SCRIPTURE SAYS, NO ONE WHO BELIVES IN HIM WILL BE PUT TO SHAME[/quote]
Notice that you just proved faith+works = salvation. That's Catholic teaching, and to my knowledge, no Protestant denomination believes this (although there's bound to be one out there that does).

[quote]Its the church i was baptised in. But there is noway (at least at this point of my life) I can agree when people say that their is no salvation outside the catholic church. And i cant agree when i hear a catholic say that they "ARE THE ONLY ONE TRUE CHRUCH"  [/quote]
Then you shouldn't agree with Christians when they say "JESUS IS THE ONE TRUE LORD". If you want to condemn people for simply believing in truth, then you have to be fair about it.

God bless.

[StColette]

Matthew 16
18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Christ says " upon this rock I will build [b] my church [/b]" He did not say Churches.

1 Corinthians 12
25 That there might be no schism in the body; but the members might be mutually careful one for another.

1 Corinthians 12 warns against schism ( seperation ) in the body ( the Church )

Edited August 30, 2004 by StColette

[MC Just]

FOUR MARKS OF THE TRUE CHURCH

If we wish to locate the Church founded by Jesus, we need to locate the one that has the four chief marks or qualities of his Church. The Church we seek must be one, holy, catholic, and apostolic.

The Church Is One (Rom. 12:5, 1 Cor. 10:17, 12:13, CCC 813–822)
Jesus established only one Church, not a collection of differing churches (Lutheran, Baptist, Anglican, and so on). The Bible says the Church is the bride of Christ (Eph. 5:23–32). Jesus can have but one spouse, and his spouse is the Catholic Church.

His Church also teaches just one set of doctrines, which must be the same as those taught by the apostles (Jude 3). This is the unity of belief to which Scripture calls us (Phil. 1:27, 2:2).

Although some Catholics dissent from officially-taught doctrines, the Church’s official teachers—the pope and the bishops united with him—have never changed any doctrine. Over the centuries, as doctrines are examined more fully, the Church comes to understand them more deeply (John 16:12–13), but it never understands them to mean the opposite of what they once meant.

The Church Is Holy (Eph. 5:25–27, Rev. 19:7–8, CCC 823–829)
By his grace Jesus makes the Church holy, just as he is holy. This doesn’t mean that each member is always holy. Jesus said there would be both good and bad members in the Church (John 6:70), and not all the members would go to heaven (Matt. 7:21–23).

But the Church itself is holy because it is the source of holiness and is the guardian of the special means of grace Jesus established, the sacraments (cf. Eph. 5:26).

The Church Is Catholic (Matt. 28:19–20, Rev. 5:9–10, CCC 830–856)
Jesus’ Church is called catholic ("universal" in Greek) because it is his gift to all people. He told his apostles to go throughout the world and make disciples of "all nations" (Matt. 28:19–20).

For 2,000 years the Catholic Church has carried out this mission, preaching the good news that Christ died for all men and that he wants all of us to be members of his universal family (Gal. 3:28).

Nowadays the Catholic Church is found in every country of the world and is still sending out missionaries to "make disciples of all nations" (Matt. 28:19).

The Church Jesus established was known by its most common title, "the Catholic Church," at least as early as the year 107, when Ignatius of Antioch used that title to describe the one Church Jesus founded. The title apparently was old in Ignatius’s time, which means it probably went all the way back to the time of the apostles.

The Church Is Apostolic (Eph. 2:19–20, CCC 857–865)
The Church Jesus founded is apostolic because he appointed the apostles to be the first leaders of the Church, and their successors were to be its future leaders. The apostles were the first bishops, and, since the first century, there has been an unbroken line of Catholic bishops faithfully handing on what the apostles taught the first Christians in Scripture and oral Tradition (2 Tim. 2:2).

These beliefs include the bodily Resurrection of Jesus, the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist, the sacrificial nature of the Mass, the forgiveness of sins through a priest, baptismal regeneration, the existence of purgatory, Mary’s special role, and much more —even the doctrine of apostolic succession itself.

Early Christian writings prove the first Christians were thoroughly Catholic in belief and practice and looked to the successors of the apostles as their leaders. What these first Christians believed is still believed by the Catholic Church. No other Church can make that claim.

[Dave]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' date='Aug 30 2004, 05:07 PM'] what is "the church" ??
how can you say their is only one "church" ??
i think that is one of the most arrogant things catholic peeps say
how can you say that a church is not a church jus becuz its not catholic ??
does God support this ?? or does man ???
[/quote]
We know there's only one Church because Jesus said to Peter, "On this rock I will build my Church." Note that He said "church," not "churches." Later on St. Paul says the Church is the "pillar and foundation of truth." He referred to the Church, not churches. In addition, scripture says the Church (again, not churches) is the bride of Christ. Jesus can have only one bride, and His bride is the Catholic Church.

Does that mean that non-Catholic Christians aren't truly Christian? Hardly. Non-Catholic Christians are also part of Christ's Church -- the Catholic Church. However, non-Catholics are imperfectly united to the Catholic Church because they reject the pope as Peter's successor as well as lots of other Catholic doctrines. However, if an individual non-Catholic Christian becomes a Catholic Christian, then their imperfect unity with Christ's Church becomes perfect.

[quote]If you have Jesus in your heart by the spirit and live by His Word you have a continued supper in the body and blood of Christ. The works of the Spirit are not of man nor of the flesh, so says all the Word. You live by it only in spirit and truth. Its lived by every word that comes from the Lord by the Holy Spirit. This is how you eat His flesh and drink His blood, by the Word[/quote]

Nope, Jesus meant it literally when He said we had to eat His Body and drink His Blood in order to have life. That's why all those disciples left -- they understood him correctly. Note that Jesus didn't call them back, saying, "Hey, wait a minute! I was only speaking figuratively!" The word Jesus used for "eat" actually means literally "to gnaw." Back then (and this is still the case today in that culture), to figuratively eat one's body and drink one's blood meant to slander and betray them. In addition, if Jesus meant that all you had to do was believe in Him, the people wouldn't have left. These were disciples of Jesus who had ALREADY accepted Him and everything He'd taught them up to that point. Then when He turned to the 12 and asked them if they also wanted to leave, St. Peter said, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of everlasting life. We have come to believe and are convinced that you are the Holy One of Israel." They already believed in Jesus, and yet Peter says something that would indicate that they might have left anyway had it not been for the fact they already believed in Him.

[quote]Timothy 4-1
Now the spirt explicitly says that in the last times some will turn away from the faith by paying attention to decietful spirtis and demonic instructions through the hypocirsy of liars with branded consciences. THEY FORBID MARRIAGE
Tell me how that it is acceptable for a priest not to be allowed to be married ??? That is not biblical at all.[/quote]

The Church doesn't forbid marriage to priests. Rather, priests willingly choose not to marry when they decide to become priests. Paul talks in another letter how it's good to be single (he too was single). And Jesus talks about those who become "eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven." By the way, certain eastern rites of Catholicism allow priests to be married. Paul was referring to heretical sects who act like marriage is of the devil (and such groups did indeed exist).

[quote]I work with disabled kids. One of the guys i work with, his father is a pastor in the church. This is a small country church. He lives a very humbel life. They have adopted children with special needs. Now you tell me how you could tell this man that his church is not a church of God ?? AND tell me how you can tell this man that their is no salvation outside of the catholic church. It is that kind of attitude that turns me away from the catholic faith so much[/quote]

The Church doesn't teach that non-Catholics are automatically hellbound. If they came to the conclusion that the Catholic Church is Jesus' Church but still refused to enter it, that would be different, of course. And refer back to what I said earlier about non-Catholic Christians forming part of the Church, albeit imperfectly. It doesn't mean that non-Catholic Christians aren't true followers of Christ.

[quote]Romans 10-6
Do not say in your heart "Who will go up into heaven ? (that is to bring Christ down) or "Who will go down into the abyss?" (that is to bring Christ up from the dead) But what does it say ? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is the word of FAITH THAT WE PREACH)  FOR IF YOU CONFESS WITH YOUR MOUTH THAT JESUS IS LORD AND BELIEVE IN YOUR HEART THAT GOD RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD, YOU WILL BE SAVED. FOR ONE BELIEVES WITH WITH THE HEART AND SO IS JUSTIFIED AND ONE CONFESSES WITH THE MOUTH AND SO IS SAVED. FOR THE SCRIPTURE SAYS, NO ONE WHO BELIVES IN HIM WILL BE PUT TO SHAME

This is how i feel. I love God, I love Jesus.  I fall short so many times and i do have a love for the catholic church. Its the church i was baptised in. But there is noway (at least at this point of my life) I can agree when people say that their is no salvation outside the catholic church. And i cant agree when i hear a catholic say that they "ARE THE ONLY ONE TRUE CHRUCH"  [/quote]

Please see above.

[jasJis]

In a little synopsis, we are members of the One Church by the Grace of God. We are outside of the Church when we reject this Grace. We are saved by accepting Grace, we are condemned by rejecting Grace. God alone can judge perfectly what gifts of Grace He gives each of us. God alone can judge perfectly what we reject with our Free Will. Even the Catholic Church recognizes that God's grace at work in Man's heart supercedes even the Graces of the Church. But....
We have intellect, society, shared knowledge, history, etc., All the ways we communicate with each other, with God, and share our experiences with His Grace, and serve as channels of Grace that we humans cannot easily claim ignorance and say that we "didn't know" or "didn't realize". The One Church is the Eternal Spring of Grace. All of Christianity, owes the knowledge, the history, the perservation of this Grace to the One Church, the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church is the Tap Root of the Tree of Salvation. Anything else is just a branch, an off-shoot, or worse, a cutting of the One Church.

It's really kinda sad. The Catholic Church (the Trunk and Taproot) recognizes all Christians as members of the Church, but most other Christians (protestants, branches at best) reject the Trunk and Taproot as not even being a plant, much less the origin, foundation, and source of Grace that even enables their existence.

[Guest]

i appreciate the feedback
heck i dunno, im jus a confused dude
hopefully God will have mercy on my soul

[follow_the_pelican]

no worries little bro, he will,he will.

[MorphRC]

I thought DB was catholic

[goldenchild17]

This has been covered very well. I'd just like to add one more thing that convinces me that the Catholic Church is the only true Church.
1 Tim. 3:15 says "But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth."

This says that the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth. So, it obviously much teach the truth, right? Well, then let's just look at all the thousands of denominations and branches and whatnot of Christianity. Every single one of them somehow differs in theological teaching. So clearly they cannot ALL be teaching the truth, thereby canceling the possibility of all Christian churches being the "Church". It's pretty clear, to me at least, that there can only be one true Church, and if we go back in history the last 2000 years we see that it is the Catholic Church that has existed from the very beginning. This is the only possibility in my mind.

[Guest]

[quote name='MorphRC' date='Aug 31 2004, 01:23 AM'] I thought DB was catholic [/quote]
im jus confused
im always searching
and this thread has really started to convince me
i am catholic...i need to start attending mass every week and start to grow in my faith....but i am catholic......not a good one....but hopefully by the grace of God i can change that.....thanks ya'll

[MC Just]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' date='Aug 31 2004, 01:03 PM'] im jus confused
im always searching
and this thread has really started to convince me
i am catholic...i need to start attending mass every week and start to grow in my faith....but i am catholic......not a good one....but hopefully by the grace of God i can change that.....thanks ya'll [/quote]
Dope. We'll be praying for you...

[Guest]

thanks just
i can use all the prayers i can get