Fundamentalist Catholics

[godspeed]

I happened upon your website, very interesting.

Why is is that Fundamentalist and Extremist Catholic groups feel the need to wage hate campaigns in this election (and hate is putting it mildly) They hate homosexuals they hate people who support the right of a woman to have an abortion, they seem to hate everyone who doesn't agree with their version of 'truth'. It is a case of if you are not with me then you will likely burn in hell. Why are they so hung up on sex? Sex is an amazing gift from God. How anyone can still listen 100% to the moral hyperbole of this institution ESPECIALLY on issues of sexual morality with a straight face is beyond me!!! I have had sex before marriage but have never had sex with a 9 year old boy and I am supposed to tow the party line? As far as I and many other catholics are concerned, we don't buy it anymore.

How you can accept the 'absolute truth' of an organisation that has done so much evil in the name of Jesus is beyond me. people do some thinking for yourelf and don't just throw me back some quote from the catechism, anyone can do that. Engage me in some critical debate, argue with me, don't just say I am nuts and need the prayers of everyone to help me see the error of my ways and keep me out of the fires of hell - it doesn't scare me and it never will.

I love Jesus Christ but the church that supposedly represent him should be fired.

Lets breathe some new life into this institution

PS It seems like 'sin' and 'guilt' feature highly on many of your posts. Shouldn't we be a little more concerned with charity and compassion rather than judging others?

Just a thought.

A Kerry Voting pro-choice catholic

[theculturewarrior]

:hearts:

God bless you!

I think you're wrong on all counts but...

:hearts:

[homeschoolmom]

Maybe this should be on the Debate Table.

I am not trying to argue-- This is just my idle curiousity. What about Catholicism is so compeling to you that you desire to remain Catholic when you seem to disagree with it's hierarchy...?

[godspeed]

Homeschoolmom that is a fair comment and I will try to respond the best I can.

I do not have a problem with everything the church teaches, If I did I would just leave and find another church period. I love the Catholic Church and by that I mean the community, the church as people of God but I cannot sit idly by and just accept all of their teachings. If you guys can then good for you but I cannot. At some times we are asked and even demanded to speak up and tell it like it is.

Since people like quoting official church documents here is one to ponder

Christ … fulfills His prophetic office … not only by the hierarchy who teach in His name and by His power, but also by the laity …." (Vatican II, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, n. 35)

[Scofizzle]

I think that you shoulde step back and look at the big picture of things. It is important to remember that we do not hate homosexuals, people who have abortions, or anyone that disagrees with the true version of the "Truth". We hate homosexuality, abortion, and an un-unified church. We hate the sin, not the sinner. I think if you look around you will find compassion and love on this site....and the occasional good natured ribbing.

You are correct, there are extremists Catholic groups. I don't believe this is one of them. And it is important to remember that one person or group of people does not Represent the Church as a whole.

"How you can accept the 'absolute truth' of an organisation that has done so much evil in the name of Jesus is beyond me. people do some thinking for yourelf and don't just throw me back some quote from the catechism, anyone can do that."

- The Church as an institution has never done anything evil in the name of Jesus. There have been incidents where individuals in the church have fallen into temptation, recently and in the distant past. If you remember correctly preists, deacons, any other religious, and lay ecclesial ministers (non religious ministers i.e. youth ministers) are all human's and are subject to temptation from the devil, and some do not belong in the positions they are b/c of their state in their paths to holiness.

"How anyone can still listen 100% to the moral hyperbole of this institution ESPECIALLY on issues of sexual morality with a straight face is beyond me!!! "

-Once again you were 100% correct. Sex is a gift from God. And I'm sure its great, but it should only be used in marriage. It is clearly stated biblically. I'm sure you trust in at least the bible. And I think you should think twice before speaking for other Catholics b/c many of us do trust in God's plan for sex and marriage.

The point is....The church is a good and holy institution that was established by Jesus Christ himself. There have been mistakes made by some high reanking officials in the past but everyone can be tempted by the devil. After 200 years the church is still strong. Christianity beign the second largest religion in the world and Catholocism being the largest "denomination" and also the cornerstone and only truely devinely inspired Church, I think there are still a couple of true followers out there. Granted every Church is going to have members who are "not up to snuff" as I like to say, meaning they are not good at practicing their faith, but thats OK b/c those people can come back to God.

as far as your pro-choice stance goes........I will put it plain and simple........
You are Wrong!!!!

and even though you told us not to I will pray for you.

your brother in Christ,
Scofizzle

[Scofizzle]

sorry there were some posts that cleared up some things..while I was typing this one.

And (moderators)...if I was speaking heretical nonsense please let me know

Edited August 31, 2004 by Scofizzle

[catholicguy]

[quote name='godspeed' date='Aug 31 2004, 10:01 AM'] I happened upon your website, very interesting.

Why is is that Fundamentalist and Extremist Catholic groups feel the need to wage hate campaigns in this election (and hate is putting it mildly) They hate homosexuals they hate people who support the right of a woman to have an abortion, they seem to hate everyone who doesn't agree with their version of 'truth'. It is a case of if you are not with me then you will likely burn in hell. Why are they so hung up on sex? Sex is an amazing gift from God. How anyone can still listen 100% to the moral hyperbole of this institution ESPECIALLY on issues of sexual morality with a straight face is beyond me!!! I have had sex before marriage but have never had sex with a 9 year old boy and I am supposed to tow the party line? As far as I and many other catholics are concerned, we don't buy it anymore.

How you can accept the 'absolute truth' of an organisation that has done so much evil in the name of Jesus is beyond me. people do some thinking for yourelf and don't just throw me back some quote from the catechism, anyone can do that. Engage me in some critical debate, argue with me, don't just say I am nuts and need the prayers of everyone to help me see the error of my ways and keep me out of the fires of hell - it doesn't scare me and it never will.

I love Jesus Christ but the church that supposedly represent him should be fired.

Lets breathe some new life into this institution

PS It seems like 'sin' and 'guilt' feature highly on many of your posts. Shouldn't we be a little more concerned with charity and compassion rather than judging others?

Just a thought.

A Kerry Voting pro-choice catholic [/quote]
You obviously have no clue what the Church means when She says She is infallible. Infallible means that the Church cannot teach error. No teaching of the Church is fallible. For example, the Assumption, which was the most recent infallible pronouncement cannot be incorrect. The Church cannot teach error regarding morals. HOWEVER, certain people CAN sin. That has nothing to do with the Church's teaching. The Church does not say that homosexual activities are OK. In fact, that is what you just said. The Church condemns homosexual activity. The studies of the cases show that these "pedophiles" are actually commiting these crimes with boys the average age of [b]15 and 16[/b]. That is not pedophilia. That is HOMOSEXUALITY. In any event, the Church condemns both evil practices; however, you seem to support them, since you are for homosexual rights. You said also:
[quote]Shouldn't we be a little more concerned with charity and compassion rather than judging others?[/quote]
Saying that a person has sinned, etc. is not judging that person. If someone murders someone, you aren't judging him by saying that what he has done is a sin and is wrong. That is what murder is: wrong. Judging someone is when someone says something and you judge HIS MOTIVES and his INTENTION, not his action. Every action is either good or bad (for the most part), and saying if it is good or bad is not judging but merely stating a fact.

[p0lar_bear]

[quote name='godspeed' date='Aug 31 2004, 12:38 PM'] Since people like quoting official church documents here is one to ponder

Christ … fulfills His prophetic office … not only by the hierarchy who teach in His name and by His power, but also by the laity …." (Vatican II, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, n. 35) [/quote]
godspeed,

I think you have a mistaken understanding of the [i]sensus fidelium[/i], or the sense of the faithful.

In the early 5th century, St. Vincent of Lerins, writing under the pseudonym of Peregrinus, defined a “rule of faith” for what is to be believed. He stated that the Catholic Faith is “that faith which has been believed everywhere, always, by all.” This rule of faith is the basis of the doctrine of the sensus fidelium.

This doctrine is explicitly stated in Vatican II’s Lumen Gentium, no. 12:

[quote]The holy people of God shares also in Christ's prophetic office; it spreads abroad a living witness to Him, especially by means of a life of faith and charity and by offering to God a sacrifice of praise, the tribute of lips which give praise to His name. The entire body of the faithful, anointed as they are by the Holy One, cannot err in matters of belief. They manifest this special property by means of the whole peoples' supernatural discernment in matters of faith when “from the Bishops down to the last of the lay faithful” they show universal agreement in matters of faith and morals. That discernment in matters of faith is aroused and sustained by the Spirit of truth. It is exercised under the guidance of the sacred teaching authority, in faithful and respectful obedience to which the people of God accepts that which is not just the word of men but truly the word of God. Through it, the people of God adheres unwaveringly to the faith given once and for all to the saints, penetrates it more deeply with right thinking, and applies it more fully in its life.[/quote]

It is important to note that in Lumen Gentium as well as in St. Vincent of Lerins’ writing, this “sense of the faithful” was always exercised in union and fidelity to the Church and the hierarchy. St. Vincent maintains that “to continue sound and complete in the Catholic faith, we must, the Lord helping, fortify our own belief in two ways; first, by the authority of the Divine Law, and then, by the Tradition of the Catholic Church.” Just as a bishop only legitimately exercises his teaching role when he is in union with the Holy Father, the faithful are called to be docile to the teachings of the Church. The faithful are obligated to inform their consciences properly and according to the Faith. Because it works in opposition to the Church, dissent is not a legitimate example of the sense of the faithful.

The sensus fidelium in a true Catholic sense does not lead to ideas of a democratic church or a “majority rules” view of the Faith. A true sense of the faithful is never
contrary to what has been definitively taught by the Church. The sense of the faithful cannot change infallibly defined doctrine any more than a pope can. In addition, it does not mean that the faithful are allowed to choose what Church teachings they will and will not accept.

[catholicguy]

[quote]Christ … fulfills His prophetic office … not only by the hierarchy who teach in His name and by His power, but also by the laity …." (Vatican II, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, n. 35) [/quote]

That has nothing to do with Dogma. The Church has always taught the superiority of the hierarchy. The members of the hierarchy have the Sacrament of Holy Orders. The laity can't just make up whatever they want to believe. The Church teaches and has always taught that anyone who does not believe in all that She teaches is a heretic, whether formal or material. It does not matter. You would be a formal heretic, I would think, since you know what the Church teaches and openly and freely chose to reject that teaching. The Church has said that heretics are not a part of the Church. So, even if you claim to be Catholic, you are not Catholic unless you believe ALL the Church teaches infallibly regarding Faith and morals. That has nothing to do with what a certain few Priests do. They will be judged for their sins. (You say not to judge, but they you judge them--but by my definition of "judge"--the correct definition of judge--you are not commiting a sin in merely saying that what they did was wrong.)

Edited August 31, 2004 by catholicguy

[godspeed]

I can accept all of your comments, it is refreshing to see people so informed on Catholic Church teaching. That said I will continue to call myself Catholic and receive communion guilt free. I will exercise the right to let my conscience be my guide on matters of my faith. If I am correct my conscience can never be disobeyed even if it conflicts with official church teaching. It is my hope that one day in the spirit of Vatican II we can continue to reform the Church

I will pray for you all as I am sure you will pray for me

[p0lar_bear]

[quote name='godspeed' date='Aug 31 2004, 01:00 PM'] I can accept all of your comments, it is refreshing to see people so informed on Catholic Church teaching. That said I will continue to call myself Catholic and receive communion guilt free. I will exercise the right to let my conscience be my guide on matters of my faith. If I am correct my conscience can never be disobeyed even if it conflicts with official church teaching. It is my hope that one day in the spirit of Vatican II we can continue to reform the Church

I will pray for you all as I am sure you will pray for me [/quote]
The "spirit of Vatican II" is found in the [i]words[/i] of Vatican II.

You are right in saying that you can not act contrary to your conscience, but you have the [i]obligation[/i] to form your conscience properly.

[quote name='[I']Dignitatis Humanae[/I], no. 14]In the formation of their consciences, the Christian faithful ought carefully to attend to the sacred and certain doctrine of the Church.(35) For the Church is, by the will of Christ, the teacher of the truth. It is her duty to give utterance to, and authoritatively to teach, that truth which is Christ Himself, and also to declare and confirm by her authority those principles of the moral order which have their origins in human nature itself. [/quote]

Freedom of Conscience is [i]not[/i] license to dissent from Church teaching (including the teachings on homosexuality, the evils of abortion and contraception, and the impossiblity of ordaining women to the priesthood)

[Azriel]

Moving out of Open Mic as this one is going to get nasty.

[p0lar_bear]

[quote name='Azriel' date='Aug 31 2004, 01:39 PM'] Moving out of Open Mic as this one is going to get nasty. [/quote]
My apologies if my posts came across as offensive; that was not the intent.

[Azriel]

[quote name='p0lar_bear' date='Aug 31 2004, 11:41 AM'] My apologies if my posts came across as offensive; that was not the intent. [/quote]
None necessary. I just like Open Mic to stay conflict free.

pOlar you've got to be one of the least offensive people on PM. :hearts:

[Thy Geekdom Come]

What I would like to know is why there are so many "pro-American" secularist out there who hate the Catholic Church so much.

You say that the Church hates homosexuals, but this is terribly incorrect. The Church hates homosexual activity, but homosexuality in itself can't be helped and is therefore not sinful. If you truly believe that the Church hates people with Same Sex Attraction, then you should speak to Aloysius, he'll tell you the exact opposite with experience to back it up.

Furthermore, the "right" of a woman to have an abortion does not exist. First, because the state cannot grant rights which go against natural law, which the US Supreme Court has upheld. Second, because the constitution never guarantees the right to an abortion or the alleged "right to privacy" so often times alluded to, but never quoted. How could it be quoted? It's not there.

Now, to get into abortion a little, one could not validly argue that life starts after conception. Science has proven that life starts at conception. What do the pro-abortion politicians do? They change the terminology and begin to backtrack. Suddenly, it's not that pre-natal children don't exist, it's that they don't have personhood. Well, that is arguably the worst defense of Russian Roulette I've ever heard. How could one know scientifically whether they have personhood or not? One can't. So why on earth would we want to take the risk of possibly destroying what is possibly a life? How about we start killing off the mute and the paralyzed? They can't express themselves well enough to show personality...

Then I hear the "it's a potential human" argument. Now, I'm taken some philosophy and logic courses. I know what "potential" means. A thing with potential to become A also has potential to become B, C, D, E, etc. What else would this child become? Is a mother human going to birth a rhino?

Why is the Catholic Church hung up on sex, you ask? I ask something else: why is the secular world hung up on morality? It is plainly observable that sex has purpose. Sex causes procreation and it unites to creatures together to create new life. That is the purpose of sex. The end of sex is not physical pleasure. That is a means, a way, perhaps, that God meant to ensure that creatures would procreate. It is not a theme park to be used for personal amusement with the proper "safety" precautions. How does it say to your spouse that you wish to give yourself entirely to him/her if you use contraception or have sex purely for the purpose of your own pleasure? Sex is sinful if it is for selfish reasons, and that is what our society loves now.

As for the "sex with a 9 year old boy" comment...just what is your point? This does not invalidate the Church's position on sex. To say such would be a blatent [i]Tu Quoque[/i] fallacy. Christ said to do as the religious leaders taught, but not as they did. The Holy Catholic Church retains her moral authority despite what her people may do. The Catholic Church is a church of sinners striving to be saints. It is not a place where you can just get together with your friends and hang out. It is not a place meant for the purpose of making you feel like you're not a sinner. In fact, the more devout you become, the more you recognize yourself as a sinner. In that recognition lies liberation, because you realize that because you are a sinner, you can be saved that much more by the merits of Christ's Passion and Death.

You put the words [i]absolute truth[/i] in quotation marks. Why? Are there multiple truths? Is truth relative? Tell me everyone has his own personal truth and that I have my own truth and I will say to you that my truth is that there is one absolute truth. Then where will your argument go? It is flawed fundamentally.

You tell us not to quote the Catechism and to think for ourselves. Most of the regulars on this site, most of those who read this, are people who converted or reverted to Catholicism after studying for themselves. We saw the truth of the Catholic Church. If we quote the Catechism to you, it is because thinking for ourselves assured our belief in the Catechism.

Furthermore, by implying that the Magisterium of the Catholic Church is incorrect, that we should "think for ourselves" you are negatively criticizing the Magisterium, which is forbidden on this site, and you are supporting grave errors. In addition, your comment about how the Catholic Church should be fired is tantamount to rejection of the faith. You cannot call yourself a Catholic, even if it does have the words "Kerry Voting pro-choice" before it.

You also imply that when we say we will pray for you, we are trying to scare you. Why on earth would we want to scare you?

Furthermore, [i]sin[/i] and [i]guilt[/i] feature highly in our posts because our posts reflect the Church. Pointing out sins of others and trying to correct them is not judging others. Judging others would be pointing out sins and not trying to help or saying that a person is going to hell. You will not find that attitude here. The Bible tells us to admonish the sinner. We do that here and we do it with every intent of bringing the sinner to paradise with us, who are sinners also.

With much love in Christ,

Raphael

[ironmonk]

[quote name='godspeed' date='Aug 31 2004, 12:01 PM'] I happened upon your website, very interesting.

Why is is that Fundamentalist and Extremist Catholic groups feel the need to wage hate campaigns in this election (and hate is putting it mildly) They hate homosexuals they hate people who support the right of a woman to have an abortion, they seem to hate everyone who doesn't agree with their version of 'truth'. It is a case of if you are not with me then you will likely burn in hell. Why are they so hung up on sex? Sex is an amazing gift from God. How anyone can still listen 100% to the moral hyperbole of this institution ESPECIALLY on issues of sexual morality with a straight face is beyond me!!! I have had sex before marriage but have never had sex with a 9 year old boy and I am supposed to tow the party line? As far as I and many other catholics are concerned, we don't buy it anymore.

How you can accept the 'absolute truth' of an organisation that has done so much evil in the name of Jesus is beyond me. people do some thinking for yourelf and don't just throw me back some quote from the catechism, anyone can do that. Engage me in some critical debate, argue with me, don't just say I am nuts and need the prayers of everyone to help me see the error of my ways and keep me out of the fires of hell - it doesn't scare me and it never will.

I love Jesus Christ but the church that supposedly represent him should be fired.

Lets breathe some new life into this institution

PS It seems like 'sin' and 'guilt' feature highly on many of your posts. Shouldn't we be a little more concerned with charity and compassion rather than judging others?

Just a thought.

A Kerry Voting pro-choice catholic [/quote]
It's a Catholic's obligation to know the Teachings of the Faith.

The Church is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth... not the laymen.

Here are a few guides for real Catholic Faith stances... God speaks through the Church (St. Luke 10:16). Christ said the Church would never be overcome (St. Matt 16:18); if you believe in Christ, then you must believe that or you really do not believe.

To be Catholic is to be of One Faith....


[url="http://www.usccb.org/faithfulcitizenship/index.htm"]http://www.usccb.org/faithfulcitizenship/index.htm[/url]

[url="http://www.catholic.com/library.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library.asp[/url]

[url="http://www.scriptureCatholic.com"]http://www.scriptureCatholic.com[/url]

[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/voters_guide.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library/voters_guide.asp[/url]

[url="http://www.moraltruth.com/Danger.asp"]http://www.moraltruth.com/Danger.asp[/url]

[url="http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/entiretoc1.htm"]http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/entiretoc1.htm[/url]


God lays down the law for what is right or wrong. Not man.


A vote for kerry is a grave sin. To support abortion is a grave sin. Sex outside of marriage is a grave sin. To support same sex marriage is a grave sin.

You say have charity and compassion rather than judging others after coming here and judging us? You are complaining about what you are doing. Saying a sin is a sin is not judging anyone. Charity demands fraternal correction.

Your assumptions about hate are wrong, also your view of history is distorted.


Please pick one topic, and let's cover it fully, and logically.

God Bless,
ironmonk

[Ash Wednesday]

There *are* homosexuals and people with same-sex attractions that are regulars on this board. We even have Protestants and pagans on this board, too. We love all of them, and contrary to what you might be thinking, we generally get along well. If we "hated" them, they wouldn't be on here.

Maybe the reason why you hear us talk about "sin" and "guilt" a lot is because it is never generally talked about in public Catholic circles and we are trying to bring balance into the mix. They do exist, after all. I'm not into fear-based religion, but why ignore something that exists and is an epidemic in this world?

If you want to talk about election hatred, let me tell you -- if you're under the impression that one side of this election is exclusively peace-loving and the other is full of hate -- don't you kid yourself. Anyone that suggests that the "other side" is "evil and full of hate" is reeking of hypocrisy.

Contrary to popular belief, Vatican II is not the only council that matters and has existed. Jesus didn't walk this earth and immediately say "Here ya go!" and plop down the documents of the Second Vatican Council on our lap as the sole guide and authority in our faith. If you value being a Catholic, then you need to look at the big picture of the faith, and how the church has taught and formed over history's time. A lot of traditionalists are accused of being "closed minded" but I think liberal minded people on the other side of the coin are JUST as stubbornly closed minded.

And with all the anger going on right now, especially with politics, debate is fine -- and I say this to everyone -- but don't get so wrapped up in your issues and your anger that it blinds you to prayer, true wisdom and charity.

[dUSt]

godspeed,

If you don't believe in the church, then you shouldn't call yourself Catholic. It's dishonest. Call yourself non-denominational unless you can accept and follow the church's teaching. We are called to conform ourselves to Christ, not to conform Christ to ourselves.

God bless.

[Quietfire]

Reading Godspeed comments and everyones responses was great.
Here is my side.

Godspeed,
I am Catholic by desire.
Never being raised a Catholic with the exception of being baptised one is now, for me, seeing things in a whole new light.
I grew up thinking like you did. Everything you said, I once believed.

Something kept nagging at me.
I couldnt put my finger on it. But the world seemed to be spinning out of control and no one was at the helm to navigate. How many times have we heard it? How many times have you heard someone say that God should just come on down and finish with all of this, put an end to all this chaos that abounds, then we can start afresh?
I love Christ and would often pray for him to set me on the path.
Although the world created by God is glorious, it seemed that we were making quite the mess of it.
Everyone has and had an opinion and everyone had to be right. I am guilty of this as much as anyone. My opinions ruled my life and I couldnt be wrong since they seemed quite logical. I could argue a great arguement for abortion, separation of church and state, everyone doing their own thing as long as it didnt hurt anyone else, gay lifestyles, sex before marriage. You name it. Without any teaching from the Church, how opposite I was from her.

Life isnt like that.
There can be only one Truth.
Hard to take but true. I had to take a hard look at myself and 'my' world. I knew first and foremost that I wasnt part of this world. I would pass away and the world would continue without me here. (yeah, I had a real hard time with that one, since I was convinced the world revolved around ME !!)

I started to realize I had been living my life for me.
Now some may think this is fine. But listen carefully.
It is not the Truth. Until one lives for Christ, then one isnt living at all.
Its easy to say it, its much harder to actually mean it and do it.
How much of a pious coma many are in that simply think that if they follow there hearts then they are fine with God.
God wants so much more for us.
God wants so much more from us.

We know for instance that being gay is not a sin.
Its the acting out that is the sin.
Therefore, having a gay relationship is not following the will of Christ.

Sex is not a sin.
Sex though, outside of marriage cheapens both partners. There is nothing beautiful in it.
Dogs have sex too.
Sex outside of marriage is nothing more than an act of desire, an urge. Its selfishness.

Choosing self over God is wrong. Its a sin.

Anytime we choose us before God, then we are against God and are sinning. It really is that simple.

We can complain about the Church, that she isnt "with the times". The Church need not follow popular opinion. She has done quite well for over 2000 years.
She will be here after I am gone, after you are gone, still doing the same thing that she has done for two millenia...speaking the Truth. And oh, how unpopular the Truth is. Everybody wants the Truth but no one wants to honestly hear it. Especially when it doesnt jive with ones own way of thinking.
She has dealt with the Truth, and has done so admirably. It is you and I who have a hard time with the Truth.

Since we are simply cells in the body of Christ, we assume we can 'change' things for the better. The body though, cannot do what a body cannot do.
Since the Truth is Christ, and Christ is the head. And we (the Church) are the body, how can the body change what Truth is? It cannot. We cannot change Christ, but Christ can change us.

I live, yet not I, for Christ lives in me.
Therefore, I shall live for Christ.
He is my Truth.

Peace.

[p0lar_bear]

godspeed,

It seems you've gotten a full-out attack...

I realize that all the responses are probably a little much for you to address all at once. How about you start a thread about whatever topic you wish to discuss, so the field is narrowed a bit?