Still Struggling Now And Then

[Brother Adam]

Thank you for your insight. That did help.

[Ash Wednesday]

You know, I think in a way we experience a foretaste of purgatory on earth. We experience suffering, but over time it is purifying if we allow it to be. Sometimes time to us is distorted. Ever notice how long a crummy day seems, and how vacations just don't seem to last long enough? And in a blink of an eye you are in awe that life seems to go by too fast?

I think in a similar way, one's "time in purgatory" -- or process, and the steps needed for purification, if you will, is almost the state of one's holiness. Like the state of the mind. The more holy we become, the more willing we are to accept purifying and suffering, the easier it seems, so "time" is shortened.

It's also, to me, like purgatory is a certain "part" of heaven's mansion with many rooms in it that Jesus spoke of. It's like the doorway and the hall that you pass through to enter.

Also reminds me of the Interior Castle that St. Teresa of Avila spoke of, but anyway....

As for hell, well, I don't think that's much of a process. I view it as falling off a cliff. :ph34r: or St. Teresa also described the soul in a state of mortal sin like something beautiful being dropped in a cesspool of black filth. :ph34r:


I wonder if I made any sense. Just my observations.

[Scofizzle]

I think about Purgatory like taking a shower before hoping into a spiffy looking neew tuxedo. Just how I've looked at it. doesn't really make any sense.

The thing about "how long we will be in purgatory" is a mystery to us. It will always be to us here on earth/. For purgatory is in God's time. But for the ease explanation we use incriments of time that apply on to us here on earth.

"With regards to purgatory, it is a condition of the soul in which the soul is purified. This neither asserts nor rules out a physical place corresponding to it, nor does it rule out time. Certainly, all of the mystical writings on purgatory clearly point to time existing, but not in the same manner as we know it."

-great explanation Jeff.


Some people who have been notoriously wicked repent at the last second, and God will not reject any penitent sinner. Such a deathbed penitent must atone for his lifelong transgressions. Northing defiled can enter heaven (Rv 21:27). Purgatory is one of the most merciful aspects of God's love for us, and very consoling to the human heart. aptient who has the assurance of recovery willingly endures the surgeon's knife or other unpleasant rememdies. Purgatory is the vetibule of heaven

CCC# 1030
All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of Heaven.

Unfortunately the Cathecism doesn't say anything about how long this purification takes. Only God truely knows when our souls will be ready to enter Heaven.


Peace out homies

[jasJis]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Sep 2 2004, 11:22 PM'] And that is just it, there shouldn't be a striving for purgatory then. Purgatory is not a place. It is a process between judgement and heaven.

And thus I struggle with praying for those in purgatory or giving our own merit to repair sin that has been forgiven, even if a stain still remains. The longest "time" in purgatory could be macroseconds to us. [/quote]
Adam,
I understand your point. Even though I grew up attending Catholic schools, I always had a hard time reconciling YEARS in purgatory with purgatory being a process. This is how I resolved it.

As a soul is purged, to us it may be nano-seconds. To the soul, it will seem like years because simultaneously, it sees the beauty of Heaven, the Perfect Glory of God, the Joy of all the Angels and Saints, while at the same time it sees ALL of it's sins, the damage done to itself, how imperfect it is, how much Jesus suffered for them personally, how much it offended God, and still at the same time, the Forgiveness of God is burning away these imperfections and perfecting them so they can become perfect, like God, and join everyone (especially God) in Heaven. The regrets, the joys, the sorrows, the pain, the relief, etc. Our perceptions and conscieneness will not be limited to our physical reality like we were on earth. We are fully in tune with our spiritual being and our mind and comprehension isn't physically limited. It's got to be real torment to see what you are, what you could have been, what you should have been, and what you will be, through God's perspective, all at once. One nano-second MUST seem like a thousand years. How much will we desire grace to be repentent, to accept forgiveness, to need relief from our sorrows as our tears turn into dancing! We will ache with every spiritual element of our being for Grace!

Mean while, down on earth, we are praying for that soul, maybe years later. God, being outside of time and space, and Grace not being locked in physical rules, is receiving those prayers and gracing that soul with those prayers from the future. Don't forget, God knows everything and can easily know who will pray for souls even the day the World ends.

[Aloysius]

i don't understand why you are so attached to the nanosecond idea that you need to reconcile them...

who gave you the idea that because it is process it has to be real quick?

i'm just wondering, cuz i've never heard it like that. i always knew purgatory as the spiritual place you go to get purified before you reach heaven, and you stay there as long as you need

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Sep 2 2004, 11:22 PM'] or giving our own merit to repair sin that has been forgiven, even if a stain still remains. [/quote]
What merit is that, exactly?

"[i]What merit have we before grace[/i], when our every good merit is produced in us only by grace and when God, in crowning our merits, crowns nothing else but His own gifts to us" - St. Augustine.

[Aloysius]

the work of grace in us heals our soul. thus when we allow grace to work through us to do good works, it merits healing to our soul. not of our own power, but of God's grace. thus prayer and fasting and penance is God's grace healing souls, and we can offer that up for the healing of other souls, namely the Church Suffering in Purgatory.

[Guest JeffCR07]

Icthus, if you dont mind listening to a brief response, I would like to provide an answer.

The Church maintains that the good works of "unregenerate" man is only good in the natural order, and is in no way supernaturally meritorious. However, through the sacrifice of Christ and the merits of his death and ressurection, our actions in the natural realm assume a degree of supernatural worth and thus, through Christ and Christ alone, our actions can indeed become meritorious in the supernatural realm.

In this way, man is utterly incapable of saving himself (as Pelagius asserted), but, by virtue of Christ's sacrifice, our actions assume a supernatural worth, and God, who is perfect justice, properly repays the merit of things done in the supernatural order with supernatural graces.

- Your Brother In Christ, Jeff

[Apotheoun]

The process of salvation in the justified man is analogous to the incarnation of the Word. Thus, just as Christ's actions are theandric (divine and human), so too the actions of the justified man are divine and human. It is God who saves man, but He doesn't save us without our cooperation, but even this cooperation on the part of man is a gift of grace. As St. Augustine said, "God made you without any cooperation on your part. For you did not lend your consent so that God could make you. How would you have consented, when you did not exist? But He who made you without your consent does not justify you without your consent. He made you without your knowledge, but He does not justify you without your willing it." [St. Augustine, Sermon 169:13]

The merits of the saints are gifts of God's grace, but they are also human actions.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Sep 4 2004, 02:08 PM'] What merit is that, exactly?

"[i]What merit have we before grace[/i], when our every good merit is produced in us only by grace and when God, in crowning our merits, crowns nothing else but His own gifts to us" - St. Augustine. [/quote]
Hey, good job ICTHUS, you just quoted a great Catholic understanding of merit.

You do know that St. Paul spoke of his own works "filling up what is lacking in the cross" right?

[HartfordWhalers]

I quoted this in a previous thread regarding Purgatory. I don't know if it's beneficial or not...

414. Q. What is Purgatory?
A. Purgatory is the state in which those suffer for a time who die guilty of venial sins, or without having satisfied for the punishment due to their sins.
"Punishment,"--that is, temporal punishment, already explained to you. After the general judgment there will be Heaven and Hell, but no Purgatory, for there will be no men living or dying upon the earth in its present condition to go there. All will be dead and judged and sent to their final abodes. Those in Purgatory are the friends of God; and knowing Him as they do now, they would not go into His holy presence with the slightest stain upon their souls; still they are anxious for their Purgatory to be ended that they may be with God. They suffer, we are told, the same pains of sense as the damned; but they suffer willingly, for they know that it is making them more pleasing to God, and that one day it will all be over and He will receive them into Heaven. Their salvation is sure, and that thought makes them happy. If, therefore, you believe any of your friends are in Purgatory, you should help them all you can, and try by your prayers and good works to shorten their time of suffering. They will help you--though they cannot help themselves--by their prayers. And oh, when they are admitted into Heaven, how they will pray for those that have helped them out of Purgatory! If you do this great charity, God will, when you die, put in some good person's heart to pray for you while you suffer in Purgatory. There must be a Purgatory, for one who dies with the slightest stain of sin upon his soul cannot enter Heaven, and yet God would not send him to Hell for so small a sin. But why does God punish those He loves? Why does He not forgive everything? He punishes because He is infinitely just and true. He warned them that if they did certain things they would be punished; and they did them, and God must keep His promise. Moreover He is just, and must give to everyone exactly what he deserves.

Summa Theologica:

Whether the pains of Purgatory surpass all the temporal pains of this life?

Objection 1. It would seem that the pains of Purgatory do not surpass all the temporal pains of this life. Because the more passive a thing is the more it suffers if it has the sense of being hurt. Now the body is more passive than the separate soul, both because it has contrariety to a fiery agent, and because it has matter which is susceptive of the agent's quality: and this cannot be said of the soul. Therefore the pain which the body suffers in this world is greater than the pain whereby the soul is cleansed after this life.

Objection 2. Further, the pains of Purgatory are directly ordained against venial sins. Now since venial sins are the least grievous, the lightest punishment is due to them, if the measure of the stripes is according to the measure of the fault. Therefore the pain of Purgatory is the lightest of all.

Objection 3. Further, since the debt of punishment is an effect of sin, it does not increase unless the sin increases. Now sin cannot increase in one whose sin is already remitted. Therefore if a mortal sin has been remitted in a man who has not fully paid the debt of punishment, this debt does not increase when he dies. But while he lived he was not in debt to the extent of the most grievous punishment. Therefore the pain that he will suffer after this life will not be more grievous to him than all other pains of this life.

On the contrary, Augustine says in a sermon (xli De Sanctis): "This fire of Purgatory will be more severe than any pain that can be felt, seen or conceived in this world."

Further, the more universal a pain is the greater it is. Now the whole separate soul is punished, since it is simple: which is not the case with the body. Therefore this, being the punishment of the separate soul, is greater than any pain suffered by the body.

I answer that, In Purgatory there will be a twofold pain; one will be the pain of loss, namely the delay of the divine vision, and the pain of sense, namely punishment by corporeal fire. With regard to both the least pain of Purgatory surpasses the greatest pain of this life. For the more a thing is desired the more painful is its absence. And since after this life the holy souls desire the Sovereign Good with the most intense longing--both because their longing is not held back by the weight of the body, and because, had there been no obstacle, they would already have gained the goal of enjoying the Sovereign Good--it follows that they grieve exceedingly for their delay. Again, since pain is not hurt, but the sense of hurt, the more sensitive a thing is, the greater the pain caused by that which hurts it: wherefore hurts inflicted on the more sensible parts cause the greatest pain. And, because all bodily sensation is from the soul, it follows of necessity that the soul feels the greatest pain when a hurt is inflicted on the soul itself. That the soul suffers pain from the bodily fire is at present taken for granted, for we shall treat of this matter further on [Cf. Supplement, 70, 3]. Therefore it follows that the pain of Purgatory, both of loss and of sense, surpasses all the pains of this life.

Some, however, prove this from the fact that the whole soul is punished, and not the body. But this is to no purpose, since in that case the punishment of the damned would be milder after the resurrection than before, which is false.

Reply to Objection 1. Although the soul is less passive than the body, it is more cognizant of actual suffering [passionis]: and where the sense of suffering is greater, there is the greater pain, though the suffering be less.

Reply to Objection 2. The severity of that punishment is not so much a consequence of the degree of sin, as of the disposition of the person punished, because the same sin is more severely punished then than now. Even so a person who has a better temperament is punished more severely by the same sentence than another; and yet the judge acts justly in condemning both for the same crimes to the same punishment.

This suffices for the Reply to the Third Objection.

(from newadvent.net)

The pain of fire in Purgatory is the same as that of Hell. Unless one claims that Hell is a mere state of being (which is condemned by the Church, to my knowlegde), then it is only logical that the same must claim that Purgatory is NOT merely a state of being. Since the pain of Hell is no short thing, the pain of Purgatory, which is the same as Hell (pain of sense, that is, fire), must also not be any short-term punishment. Of course, it depends how much you have expiated here on earth. I would suggest Read Me or Rue It by Fr. Paul O'Sullivan for more information of the pains of Purgatory. He notes that a Purgatory of 50 or 100 years in no way increases one's merit in Heaven, but every pain and suffering on earth not only decreases one's Purgatory but also increases one's merit and place in Heaven.

[Donna]

Hi, Adam. A good honest thread, thanks a lot for posting it.

Maybe you've heard this? That the Cure of Ars said we should pray much for the souls in purgatory, that they may pray much for us.

Suggestion: ask the souls in purgatory to obtain for you understanding in what you're struggling with.



(PS: A good motive to pray for the souls is to recognize that in doing so we practice charity towards God. Love. How very few on earth really know, love and serve Him - it is all around us. A soul released from Purgatory gives Him glory...).

[Donna]

Hatrford, thanks for the [i]Summa.[/i]

[HartfordWhalers]

My pleasure