HartfordWhalers Posted September 12, 2004 Author Posted September 12, 2004 (edited) [quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='Sep 11 2004, 08:22 PM'] I guess I can't PM you.. [/quote] Lol, oh yeah... Just reply to my email, then. Nevermind... I can't use email either! If you don't mind telling me the address, here is mine: catholic_whalers@yahoo.com. You can email me there with your sig, and I will reply with the list, or you can just email me via phatmass (I think), and I can reply (I think). God bless. Edited September 12, 2004 by HartfordWhalers
Aloysius Posted September 12, 2004 Posted September 12, 2004 [url="http://www.network54.com/Index/25920"]Here, go to my Phish Outreach Program if you wanna discuss forbidden topics[/url]
qfnol31 Posted September 12, 2004 Posted September 12, 2004 HW, just curious what you would say to my last question.
Laudate_Dominum Posted September 12, 2004 Posted September 12, 2004 [quote name='HartfordWhalers' date='Sep 11 2004, 08:30 PM'] Lol, oh yeah... Just reply to my email, then. Nevermind... I can't use email either! If you don't mind telling me the address, here is mine: catholic_whalers@yahoo.com. You can email me there with your sig, and I will reply with the list, or you can just email me via phatmass (I think), and I can reply (I think). God bless. [/quote] cool. my email is recluse@catholic.org God bless
HartfordWhalers Posted September 13, 2004 Author Posted September 13, 2004 [quote name='qfnol31' date='Sep 11 2004, 11:17 PM'] HW, just curious what you would say to my last question. [/quote] I assume you mean "Hartford Whalers, you claim that you are with Augustine, so I want to ask just two questions for now. Do you think that the soul is infused at the beginning of life? For Augustine did. When do you think life begins?" Although I said I was finished, I think I can muster a quick response... I suppose it would make sense that the soul is infused when life begins, since the soul is the true life of the body (a body without a soul is dead...) I am not sure, as I said, when this happens, so I suppose I don't know when life begings. I can tell you that an embryo is a different person than the mother, but that doesn't mean it is yet alive. We don't consider fish eggs in the mother to be alive... so I don't know if this is compatible, though, with a human baby in the womb. Moreover, as I said, I am not arguing for any choice, [i]since I don't know the answer[/i], just that the idea of the soul being infused at conception is not physically possible unless one of the two choices I posed were to happen, neither of which follows logic or Church teaching.
jasJis Posted September 13, 2004 Posted September 13, 2004 I would like to have it explained why two, or even 8, souls could not be embodied within 1 fertilized egg that has not subdivided yet and is still only 1 cell. Are souls too big or too heavy? Are not you trying to define and limit the Spritual with Temporal limitations? There is a difference in recognizing the rational and ordered relationship with the Spiritual and Temporal worlds. We are, after all, embodied spirits. But the Temporal does not rule the Spiritual world or Death would not have been defeated.
HartfordWhalers Posted September 13, 2004 Author Posted September 13, 2004 [quote name='jasJis' date='Sep 13 2004, 11:09 AM'] I would like to have it explained why two, or even 8, souls could not be embodied within 1 fertilized egg that has not subdivided yet and is still only 1 cell. Are souls too big or too heavy? Are not you trying to define and limit the Spritual with Temporal limitations? There is a difference in recognizing the rational and ordered relationship with the Spiritual and Temporal worlds. We are, after all, embodied spirits. But the Temporal does not rule the Spiritual world or Death would not have been defeated. [/quote] Because that means that one person has multiple souls... not because of their mass...
qfnol31 Posted September 13, 2004 Posted September 13, 2004 [quote name='HartfordWhalers' date='Sep 13 2004, 10:55 AM'] I assume you mean "Hartford Whalers, you claim that you are with Augustine, so I want to ask just two questions for now. Do you think that the soul is infused at the beginning of life? For Augustine did. When do you think life begins?" Although I said I was finished, I think I can muster a quick response... I suppose it would make sense that the soul is infused when life begins, since the soul is the true life of the body (a body without a soul is dead...) I am not sure, as I said, when this happens, so I suppose I don't know when life begings. I can tell you that an embryo is a different person than the mother, but that doesn't mean it is yet alive. We don't consider fish eggs in the mother to be alive... so I don't know if this is compatible, though, with a human baby in the womb. Moreover, as I said, I am not arguing for any choice, [i]since I don't know the answer[/i], just that the idea of the soul being infused at conception is not physically possible unless one of the two choices I posed were to happen, neither of which follows logic or Church teaching. [/quote] The reason I asked is that scientists have mostly decided that life begins at conception because the embryo can metabolize and grow, and so by that definition it would be alive (The Pope has said it is up to doctors to say when life begins and when it ends). But anyways, that's just a little tidbit on this. Thanx!
HartfordWhalers Posted September 13, 2004 Author Posted September 13, 2004 [quote name='qfnol31' date='Sep 13 2004, 01:31 PM'] The reason I asked is that scientists have mostly decided that life begins at conception because the embryo can metabolize and grow, and so by that definition it would be alive (The Pope has said it is up to doctors to say when life begins and when it ends). But anyways, that's just a little tidbit on this. Thanx! [/quote] Like I said, we don't consider fish eggs to be alive, which can multiply and grow. What defines when life begins? It is a good question... I am not sure of the answer scientifically, but it seems that a person is not a human being, truly alive, until the soul is infused, and it is not logical that this would happen IMMEDIATELY upon conception.
jasJis Posted September 13, 2004 Posted September 13, 2004 [quote name='HartfordWhalers' date='Sep 13 2004, 12:51 PM'] Because that means that one person has multiple souls... not because of their mass... [/quote] Wrong. A person is not defined by physical completeness or mental capacity. Is there a limit to the physical "personship" of siamese twins? Is all consciousness limited to physical attributes? NO it isn't. More than 1 consciousness can occupy a small physical space. It's like the old question about how many angels can dance on a pin. Spiritual consciousness is not limited to physical space. Only our earthly/temporal relationships with the earthly/temporal personage is delimted by the physical world. Your assumption that there is only 1 physical person has little to do with the number of souls.
HartfordWhalers Posted September 13, 2004 Author Posted September 13, 2004 [quote name='jasJis' date='Sep 13 2004, 02:40 PM'] Wrong. A person is not defined by physical completeness or mental capacity. Is there a limit to the physical "personship" of siamese twins? Is all consciousness limited to physical attributes? NO it isn't. More than 1 consciousness can occupy a small physical space. It's like the old question about how many angels can dance on a pin. Spiritual consciousness is not limited to physical space. Only our earthly/temporal relationships with the earthly/temporal personage is delimted by the physical world. Your assumption that there is only 1 physical person has little to do with the number of souls. [/quote] A person is made up of x number of chromosomes. Siamese twins have 2x number. An embryo has x number. Clearly and embryo is ONE person but Siamese twins are TWO.
jasJis Posted September 13, 2004 Posted September 13, 2004 That is your definition of a person. It's not the Church's. There are lot's of chromosonal mutations in people whence they don't have the normal amount or make-up of chromosmes. (Down's syndrome ring a bell?) Again. You are assuming that the soul has to reside in a certain organ or moleclear make-up. What makes a Person in the Temporal World is not necessarily required in the Spiritual World. You also are drawing limits on the Dignity of Huamnity that have not been defined by the Church. When in doubt, give Glory to God and acknowledge His Power.
CreepyCrawler Posted September 13, 2004 Posted September 13, 2004 Hello! Siamese twins have 46 chromosomes just like everyone else! Siamese twins are the equivalent of me cutting off my arm and my sister's arm and then connecting us at the shoulder w/ no arm -- we have the same number of chromosomes as we would if we weren't connected! Siamese twin-ness has nothing to do w/ chromosomes but simply the embryo splitting but not separating enough. It is impossible for a person to have more than the 46 chromosomes (important exceptions for Down syndrome, trisomy 21, and a few others, such as three sex chromosomes) because any more than two copies of each gene is an 'overdose' and causes spontaneous abortion. Again, EVERY CELL OF THE HUMAN BODY HAS 46 CHROMOSOMES (unless you have these rare problems w/ one extra or one less) AND THAT MEANS SIAMESE TWINS HAVE 46 CHROMOSOMES, TOO! That really bothers me that you said that.
CreepyCrawler Posted September 13, 2004 Posted September 13, 2004 since when does chromosome number determine soul number? i mean, when cells divide, they double their chromosome content to 92 right before fission so does that mean that for a period of time, a person has two souls and then when fission occurs and the chromosomes are split between the two new cells that the other soul disappears? ridiculous!
qfnol31 Posted September 14, 2004 Posted September 14, 2004 [quote name='HartfordWhalers' date='Sep 13 2004, 01:45 PM'] Like I said, we don't consider fish eggs to be alive, which can multiply and grow. What defines when life begins? It is a good question... I am not sure of the answer scientifically, but it seems that a person is not a human being, truly alive, until the soul is infused, and it is not logical that this would happen IMMEDIATELY upon conception. [/quote] Well, the definition used by Aristotle, and Augustine as well, is that a thing is alive (has a soul) if it can metabolize and move. Well, the embryo can do both at the point of conception, for it begins to metabolize food instantly (or as soon as it has food to metabolize) and it moves (attaches itself). What I just described is something that has at least a vegetative soul. It has a soul, as it has life. Even plants and animals have souls. At least, that's according to Aristotle I believe. (I wish I could remember the book that Augustine takes this up in, but he promotes it as well I think).
EcceNovaFacioOmni Posted September 14, 2004 Posted September 14, 2004 An interesting link for you all: [url="http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=13325"]http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=13325[/url]
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