Romeo And Juliet

[Pete-ster]

We're reading Romeo and Juliet for Freshman AP English, and I've got the teacher in a tiff, because I commented that it's not a "tragic love story" but a tale of two selfish teenagers filled with angst.

They're in a sinful relationship, they are not respecting thier families, and they commit suicide at the end.

I was told that I needed to be more "open minded"...

Should I vack down and toe the line, regurgating back what the teacher tells us? Or should I continue with my independant line of thinking and remain true to my convictions?

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[i]Freshman AP English?[/i]

Are you some sort of mental mutant?

That's a senior class!

Funny how the stereotypically "free-thinking, open-minded" English teachers don't want you to hold your own opinion.

While it's possible that it could have been love in the play, it was most likely lust...I mean...he saw her, hadn't spoken to her, hadn't even heard her voice or read her writing an he "loved" her? Sounds like lust and teenage angst to me.

Besides, Shakespeare stole the plot from ancient Greek mythology. Look up Pyramus and Thisbe.

[Pete-ster]

[quote]Freshman AP English?

Are you some sort of mental mutant?[/quote]

It's not the class for college credit, the AP designation means its a higher level than normal Freshman English.

Mental Mutant....hah!


BTW, thanks for the Greek tip. I think I'll read that, and add it to the paper that we're supposed to write when we're done with the section. :thumb:

[cmotherofpirl]

Tell your teacher to get over herself.
Free speech!

You can be so broad-minded your brains fall out.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Pete-ster' date='Sep 10 2004, 06:15 PM']
It's not the class for college credit, the AP designation means its a higher level than normal Freshman English.

Mental Mutant....hah!


BTW, thanks for the Greek tip. I think I'll read that, and add it to the paper that we're supposed to write when we're done with the section. :thumb: [/quote]
Sure. I've translated the Latin version written by Ovid, too. Let me know if you want any help.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

Oh, and one more thing...Shakespeare knew the story of Pyramus and Thisbe. We know that because he used it as a play within a play in [u]A Midsummer Night's Dream[/u].

[Pete-ster]

Bump!

[franciscanheart]

isnt that preAP then.... AP implies college level course....

[Guest T-Bone]

This reminds me of my Freshman english class, we were reading "The Old Man and the Sea." We had to write about what the fish symbolized. "A Fish by any Other Name, Still Smells the Same." The fish was nothing more than a fish...period!

My advice: Don't make waves. It's not important. Regurgatate the clap-trap that you're force fed, and you'll do fine. English teachers are from Uranus!

[franciscanheart]

i wouldnt try too hard to have a voice, it could get you in more trouble than it is worth

[hopeful1]

If any thing, i find your critique for the play amusing, if not true! speak your mind, but remember to be open to their interpretation to pass the class.

[Deeds]

Romeo and Juliet were a pair of morons, but then the point of the story wasn't gritty realism, it was intended to entertain the audience with a far-flung love story. Their recklessness was necessary to enliven the plot - it wouldn't have been half as exciting if they had met, talked to each other for a few months, gone out for a few months, got engaged, then married and had 2.5 kids. So maybe you could overlook their stupidity and focus on other themes in the play.

[toledo_jesus]

Romeo and Juliet is a tragedy, and as all tragic heroes have a fatal flaw (Hamlet-indecision, Macbeth-lust for power) so do Romeo and Juliet. Their flaw, which leads them to tragedy, is rashness. Pretty much the opposite of Hamlet, they are all too willing to take bold action.
Appreciate the story for what it is! At least they got married.

[Theologian in Training]

[quote name='Pete-ster' date='Sep 10 2004, 06:53 PM'] We're reading Romeo and Juliet for Freshman AP English, and I've got the teacher in a tiff, because I commented that it's not a "tragic love story" but a tale of two selfish teenagers filled with angst.

They're in a sinful relationship, they are not respecting thier families, and they commit suicide at the end. 

I was told that I needed to be more "open minded"...

Should I vack down and toe the line, regurgating back what the teacher tells us?  Or should I continue with my independant line of thinking and remain true to my convictions? [/quote]
While I agree somewhat, I think you have to look a little more deeply at what is also going on. It is not just teenage lust and angst occurring, when you look real close, you see that Romeo has deified Juliet and, as a result, his "treasure is where is heart is." The sin is not just lust, but a sin against the 1st commandment, "You shall have no other gods before me." In fact, look really close at the wooing scene where they first meet. he calls her a "holy shrine," and his lips he uses for "prayer." Also, she has purged him of sin, however, once he discovers this he does not want her to have the burden of his sin, so he takes it back. In essence, he wishes to condemn himself so as to not destroy her "sanctity." Look at all the times he calls her a "saint." Yet, she is nothing but, in fact, she has also deified him. "Do not swear at all. / Or, if thou wilt, swear by thy gracious self, / Which is the [b]god of my idolatry, [/b]

Also, in the final scenes, Romeo speaks about how death cannot destroy her beauty, he is still making her an idol. Yet, when she awakes to see Romeo dead, she cannot bear him leaving without her, so she too must leave as well. In essence, they are to be together forever. Therefore, though both deified each other, they forgot one important thing: they are both quite human and quite mortal and though they believe not even death could separate them, in the end, it does.

One final thing. You might want to, if you have not already, check out the Folger Library for Shakespearean plays, in each play there is a modern perspective on the play that also helps put things in perspective.

I know you may not agree, but I would recommend being more open-minded when approaching literature. Not withold independent thought, but looking at it from all angles. The reason why is because I find if you make the snap judgement that they are living in sin, disobedient, and disrespectful of life, though all true, you miss the other things occurring, like idolatry.

Unfortunately it seems that once you decide one thing about what you are reading, you no longer are open to any other ideas, and it kind of shuts you down to really developing your thoughts. Now, I am not saying you suspend your Catholic beliefs, but rather realize that you will find in literature God is always there, if even by making God absent.

Just my .02

God Bless

[theculturewarrior]

I wish I had thought of that when we were reading Romeo and Juliet.

Take your teachers advice...be open-minded, but being open-minded doesn't mean caving into opposing points of view...it means evaluating them fairly and reinforcing our convictions or finding new ones if need be (when not dealing with the Faith.)

It sounds like your prof could use some open-mindedness. In fact, it sounds like you've challended her world view. Good job!

[Iacobus]

[quote name='T-Bone' date='Sep 11 2004, 02:00 AM'] This reminds me of my Freshman english class, we were reading "The Old Man and the Sea."  We had to write about what the fish symbolized.  "A Fish by any Other Name, Still Smells the Same."  The fish was nothing more than a fish...period!

My advice: Don't make waves.  It's not important.  Regurgatate the clap-trap that you're force fed, and you'll do fine.  English teachers are from Uranus! [/quote]
I hated Old fluffy air extraction Chasing a Fish but read it carefuly. Santigo (sp?) is a symbolic Christ. H leaves little doubt with lines like

"And he fell onto his bed, palms up, and felts as if someone were driving nails through his wrists." etc.

The fish is a symbol. And I happen to love Romeo and Juliet. :ph34r:

Theologian in Training, well said.

EDIT: I can't spell. LOL!

Edited September 12, 2004 by Iacobus

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='Iacobus' date='Sep 11 2004, 09:11 PM'] I hated Old fluffy air extraction Chasing a Fish but read it clearful. [/quote]
I hate that story...

(btw, what's 'clearful'?)

[Aloysius]

thank God I had the best 9th grade english teacher EVER! MR. WATKINS!!!

he always talked about how it wasn't true love, just infatuation.

1066-- Battle of Hastings! William with an I defeated Harold with an O and something about Harald with an A that i don't remember... and never put E on a test, IT WILL NEVER BE RIGHT (ppl always do it anyway)

duude, watkins is the best teacher EVER!

[Colleen]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' date='Sep 11 2004, 09:24 PM'] I hate that story...

(btw, what's 'clearful'?) [/quote]
Oh, that's a Jacobism. I'll translate for you. Sometimes it's helpful to look at the context clues . . . but sometimes it's not. I would say, that since I know Jacob well, he meant "carefully" and not "clearful."



[quote]You can be so broad-minded your brains fall out.[/quote]
Chesterton!

[Aloysius]

i remember he also got all riled up against the administration when someone on the announcements said the date was somethin somethin somethin in the 2004th year of Our Lord.

Watkins ROCKS.

I memorized like 200 lines of Romeo and Juliet because i needed the bonus

anyway, in closing, move to Pennsylvania, go to Seneca Vally, and share in the tremendous experience that is Mr. Watkins class