How Sad....

[MichaelFilo]

[quote name='Chris Zewe' date='Sep 12 2004, 03:42 PM'] You've raised your kids as insanely devout Catholics since their birth (don't tell me I'm wrong here, I'm not). They've never had the chance to convert or even try out other religions. You live in America for the freedoms, right? If one of your kids came home from...um...bleh, I can't think of anything since they don't go to school and thus have no friends, but...came home from somewhere and said "Daddy, I want to be a Wiccan.", you'd hit the roof I'm sure. Why not give them some of those freedoms, rather than keeping them inside a bubble? [/quote]
Chris Chris Chris ( your name is an oxymoron to your actions ).

Rapheal doesn't have kids, he happens to be in college.

Trying stuff isn't really the best way to go about things. He isn't sheltering them, but instead, prepearing them agains tthe evil of this world. See, the difference would be in one, he wouldn't let them out of his sight. In the second, he guides them so that when it is time to let them go, they know how to act, and not totally mess up their lives.





If your going to talk about parenting, please have some experience (your only what, 15?).

God bless,

Mikey

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Chris Zewe' date='Sep 12 2004, 03:42 PM'] You've raised your kids as insanely devout Catholics since their birth (don't tell me I'm wrong here, I'm not).  They've never had the chance to convert or even try out other religions.  You live in America for the freedoms, right?  If one of your kids came home from...um...bleh, I can't think of anything since they don't go to school and thus have no friends, but...came home from somewhere and said "Daddy, I want to be a Wiccan.", you'd hit the roof I'm sure.  Why not give them some of those freedoms, rather than keeping them inside a bubble? [/quote]
If you're talking to me, then you're wrong. I have no kids. Please reread my original post carefully. Sorry, it's somewhat ambiguous. LOL...I'm only 19.

I live in America because I was born here. Ideally, I would live in the Vatican or Athanasia.

True freedom is found in Catholicism.

I would raise my children as devout Catholics, but there is not upper limit on how devout one can be without being described as "insane."

If someday my child wanted to be Wiccan, I would pray to God that He would do something and I would do all I could to bring him or her before God.

As for giving her the freedom to become a Wiccan, freedom is God-given, not state-given. The state can work to ensure that certain God-given freedoms reach its people, but it cannot give freedoms. No one has the right to reject God, but only the ability. On the other hand, everyone has the right not to be forced to believe in something. These are not contradictory.

The world in which I would raise my children is not a bubble. They would know of the evil in the world because they would have to live with it. I wouldn't keep them locked in my house, afterall. However, I wouldn't let them be fed the poisonous lies and filth from the public education system, secular television, etc. Why would you give your child poison?


MichaelFilo hit the nail on the head.

[Chris Zewe]

[i]Rapheal doesn't have kids, he happens to be in college. [/i]

Bah...I misinterpreted his original post here. Forgive me...you have to, or you'll burn in hell anyway.

[i]Chris Chris Chris ( your name is an oxymoron to your actions ).[/i]

Again, I can't change my name yet. And I think I'll keep it anyway. Or possibly change it to Christ...

[i]Trying stuff isn't really the best way to go about things. He isn't sheltering them, but instead, prepearing them agains tthe evil of this world. See, the difference would be in one, he wouldn't let them out of his sight. In the second, he guides them so that when it is time to let them go, they know how to act, and not totally mess up their lives.[/i]

Aye, great plan. Let's say they meet a Hindu in an elevator or something somewhere and they ask why he has a dot (I forget what it's called, no offense meant to any Hindus who read this) on his forehead. He'll explain that he's a Hindu and Raphael's son, never having even heard of a Hindu before, will ask him what that is. The Hindu will explain, and, Raphael's child will stand there, pale in the face, waiting desperately for a "I'm just kidding" from the man. When he gets none, Raph's kid will either run away in terror, attempt an exorcism, kill himself from the confusion, attempt to kill the man, or many other things. Keeping people ignorant isn't a good way to do anything.

[i]If your going to talk about parenting, please have some experience (your only what, 15?).[/i]
*you're
*you're
Two things...
1) I'm talking about psychology in general.
2) I was that little more recently, I think I'd be one of the best sources of information on that topic.

[i]If you're talking to me, then you're wrong. I have no kids. Please reread my original post carefully. Sorry, it's somewhat ambiguous. LOL...I'm only 19.[/i]

Yeah, sorry, misinterpretation on my part.

[i]I live in America because I was born here. Ideally, I would live in the Vatican or Athanasia.[/i]

Ew...

[i]True freedom is found in Catholicism.[/i]

"Free thinking needs to be abolished in both public and private life." -- Some PM veteran. Also a Catholic.

[i]I would raise my children as devout Catholics, but there is not upper limit on how devout one can be without being described as "insane."[/i]

Home schooling for any reason other than (assuming that circumstances remain as they are) better education is insane. The way you seem to plan on raising your kids is insane. [b]You're[/b] insane.

[i]If someday my child wanted to be Wiccan, I would pray to God that He would do something and I would do all I could to bring him or her before God.[/i]

Pretty words for all of the verbal, mental, and no doubt physical abuse you'd put him through to do so.

[i]As for giving her the freedom to become a Wiccan, freedom is God-given, not state-given. The state can work to ensure that certain God-given freedoms reach its people, but it cannot give freedoms. No one has the right to reject God, but only the ability. On the other hand, everyone has the right not to be forced to believe in something. These are not contradictory.[/i]

From your pathetic viewpoint they aren't. From any logical thinker's, they're about as contradictory as the following:

The statement below is false.
The statement above is true.

[i]The world in which I would raise my children is not a bubble. They would know of the evil in the world because they would have to live with it. I wouldn't keep them locked in my house, afterall. However, I wouldn't let them be fed the poisonous lies and filth from the public education system, secular television, etc. Why would you give your child poison? [/i]

You feel that those are poisons to a nonexistent soul. However, you're poisoning their mind's with your nonsense. Just like Hitler (tactics, not beliefs) and other such people, you're using a bit of psychology -- hit them with everything you've got while they're young because that's when their minds are most malleable.

[homeschoolmom]

My third grader knows about Hindus... She also would wonder why a Hindu MAN would have a "dot" on his head...

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' date='Sep 12 2004, 04:08 PM'] My third grader knows about Hindus... She also would wonder why a Hindu MAN would have a "dot" on his head... [/quote]
*gets a sly smile on his face*

[Chris Zewe]

*Notes lack of sensible responses and sees naught but a poor retaliation to his random metaphor, not at all adressing the point of said metaphor*

[MichaelFilo]

[quote]As for giving her the freedom to become a Wiccan, freedom is God-given, not state-given. The state can work to ensure that certain God-given freedoms reach its people, but it cannot give freedoms. No one has the right to reject God, but only the ability. On the other hand, everyone has the right not to be forced to believe in something. These are not contradictory.

From your pathetic viewpoint they aren't. From any logical thinker's, they're about as contradictory as the following:

The statement below is false.
The statement above is true.[/quote]

... really, please show us where what he said didn't make sense...

Thank you and God bless you, Chris,

Mikey

[Luthien]

[quote]Homeschooled kids get beat up. There. [/quote]


Im homeschooled, and also a blackbelt in martial arts.


I doubt I'd get beat up.

[Chris Zewe]

[i]... really, please show us where what he said didn't make sense...
[/i]

He says that no one has the right to reject God, but they have a right to believe what they want. I'm curious as to how that isn't contradictory. Any non-God based religion would be legit and illegit according to that. As would atheism.

...And I'm not good enough for a Pax Christi, or what?

[i]Im homeschooled, and also a blackbelt in martial arts.


I doubt I'd get beat up.[/i]

First off, I could care less if you are (and I doubt you are anyway -_-). Second, knowing techniques is hardly protection.

[homeschoolmom]

What kind of uncivilized, bullying children are you going to raise that go around beating up children who are homeschooled?

[Chris Zewe]

[i]What kind of uncivilized, bullying children are you going to raise that go around beating up children who are homeschooled? [/i]

As much as I hate to generalize, I have to here. Poor black inner city kids. And at our school a home schooled kid switched to it for some reason or another. He had no idea how to socialize, deal with other people, or accept other religions. He was made fun of for his idiocy and eventually transferred somewhere else where I'm sure he received no better treatment.

Edited September 12, 2004 by Chris Zewe

[VeraMaria]

[quote name='Chris Zewe' date='Sep 12 2004, 05:04 PM'] Aye, great plan. Let's say they meet a Hindu in an elevator or something somewhere and they ask why he has a dot (I forget what it's called, no offense meant to any Hindus who read this) on his forehead. He'll explain that he's a Hindu and Raphael's son, never having even heard of a Hindu before, will ask him what that is. The Hindu will explain, and, Raphael's child will stand there, pale in the face, waiting desperately for a "I'm just kidding" from the man. When he gets none, Raph's kid will either run away in terror, attempt an exorcism, kill himself from the confusion, attempt to kill the man, or many other things. Keeping people ignorant isn't a good way to do anything. [/quote]
Whoever said Raphael would want his kids to grow up ignorant?

Okay, if i had kids and homeschooled them it would be, to use an analogy, to give them the vitamins and vaccines they'll need and use when they're out in the world, the strength not to be poisoned by certain aspects of secular society.

I think you missed the point.

[quote]Home schooling for any reason other than (assuming that circumstances remain as they are) better education is insane.  The way you seem to plan on raising your kids is insane.  [b]You're[/b] insane.[/quote]

It [i]would[/i] be for a better education . An education that would teach them what's right from what is wrong, and how to tell what is true and waht is not. I go to a public school, and I see what happens when some people are educated only through schools like that and nothing at all by parents.


Thanks for your patience and charity

[homeschoolmom]

What exactly do you mean by "accept other religions"? Have you seen anyone here (who obviously does not agree with your religion) advocate beating you up? Yet you (who does not "accept" Catholicism) keep condoning, advocating or whatever beating up on homeschooled children.

We accept people, we reject ideas.

[J.R.D]

there in my prayers

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote]Aye, great plan. Let's say they meet a Hindu in an elevator or something somewhere and they ask why he has a dot (I forget what it's called, no offense meant to any Hindus who read this) on his forehead. He'll explain that he's a Hindu and Raphael's son, never having even heard of a Hindu before, will ask him what that is. The Hindu will explain, and, Raphael's child will stand there, pale in the face, waiting desperately for a "I'm just kidding" from the man. When he gets none, Raph's kid will either run away in terror, attempt an exorcism, kill himself from the confusion, attempt to kill the man, or many other things. Keeping people ignorant isn't a good way to do anything.[/quote]

Exposing my children objectively to the tenets of Hinduism would not harm them at all. I took a world religions class in high school and it didn't scandalize me a bit. This isn't the type of thing from which I would be protecting my children. It also doesn't mean that my children would be uncharitable or lack tolerance, which you seem to imply by saying that my son would run in terror, attempt an exorcism, kill himself, or kill the Hindu.

Furthermore, [i]ignorance[/i] is a lack of knowledge of facts. Protecting my children from the gossip, smears, lies, and scandal of our secular culture does not deprive them of facts, it deprives them of occasions to sin and subjective pseudotruths.

[quote]Ew...[/quote]

I'll take that as another splinter in my cross.

[quote]"Free thinking needs to be abolished in both public and private life." -- Some PM veteran. Also a Catholic.[/quote]

I'd like to know the exact source as well as the context. [i]Free thinking[/i] can be taken in two ways:
1. The ability of a person to come up with his own "truths" and decide subjectively what must be the case, even in spite of the facts.
2. The ability of a person to look at the reason why an objective truth really is the case and what implications it has on the world.

I think that this quote is most likely talking about the first.

[quote]Home schooling for any reason other than (assuming that circumstances remain as they are) better education is insane. The way you seem to plan on raising your kids is insane. [b]You're[/b] insane.[/quote]

I don't like personal attacks.

My reasons for desiring homeschooling for my future children are geared toward a better education, that is, one without the lies and half-truths contained in the modern, secular education system. This is all about better education.

[quote]Pretty words for all of the verbal, mental, and no doubt physical abuse you'd put him through to do so.[/quote]

What are you trying to imply, that homeschooling in the Catholic method is centered around abuse, hatred, and fear? You must not have much experience with very many faithful Catholics. Catholicism is about love.

[quote]From your pathetic viewpoint they aren't. From any logical thinker's, they're about as contradictory as the following:

The statement below is false.
The statement above is true.[/quote]

Another splinter.

1. No one has the right to reject God because all rights are given by God. To reject God is to go against God and the rights He has given us. Therefore, it would be self-contradictory to reject God and call it one's [i]right[/i]

2. We have the right not to be [b]forced[/b] to do something. This does not mean that we have the right to do otherwise, but only that we have the right not to be threatened with retribution if we do otherwise.

God gave us free will, an ability, but not a right. Free will is a thing which can be used to act. A right is an intrinsic rule legitimizing a certain set of actions. The two are apples and oranges and thus cannot be contradictory.

[quote]You feel that those are poisons to a nonexistent soul. However, you're poisoning their mind's with your nonsense. Just like Hitler (tactics, not beliefs) and other such people, you're using a bit of psychology -- hit them with everything you've got while they're young because that's when their minds are most malleable.[/quote]

Fr. Edward J. Flanagan, the founder of Boys Town, wanted to begin his apostolate because he felt that giving guidance to youth was the best way to mold them into model citizens. This is not comparable to Hitler. Hitler wished to capture the mind and only expose people to certain half-truths and whole lies. They were objectively false. I wish to give my children an education free of that mind-washing which you accuse me of, which is going on in our public schools.

[MichaelFilo]

[quote]As for giving her the freedom to become a Wiccan, freedom is God-given, not state-given. The state can work to ensure that certain God-given freedoms reach its people, but it cannot give freedoms. No one has the right to reject God, but only the ability. On the other hand, everyone has the right not to be forced to believe in something. These are not contradictory.

From your pathetic viewpoint they aren't. From any logical thinker's, they're about as contradictory as the following:

The statement below is false.
The statement above is true.[/quote]


This means (since you seem to not understand simple logical thinking) that,

-Freedom is from God, not the state

-The state can give people the ability to practice their freedom, it can't give them freedom

-No one can be justified in rejecting God, but everyone has the ability to do so (like robbing a bank)

-Everyone has the God given right to not be forced into believing anything, even God.







Since you have trouble with that... lets make it simplified.

Freedom is from God, the state can only protect your abality to give it to you.
You can't be "right" and reject God, but no one can be forced into making you believe in God.





God bless Chris,

Mikey

P.S. I'll refrain from saying Pax Christ around you, you tend to not like peace much.

[Chris Zewe]

[i]Whoever said Raphael would want his kids to grow up ignorant? [/i]

Sure, he may teach them that other religions exist and give them an overview of their beliefs, but since they have little to no exposure to the real world, these people would seem like rare enigmas. When my mom was a kid (no, she wasn't homeschooled) she was brought up as a Catholic, as was everyone in her (public) school. She knew that other religions existed, but when she met a Jew for the first time she was shocked. Take the way Raphael wants to raise his kids and amplify her shock about a thousandfold when Raphael's kids meet someone who believes in something entirely different, like that Hindu.

[i]Okay, if i had kids and homeschooled them it would be, to use an analogy, to give them the vitamins and vaccines they'll need and use when they're out in the world, the strength not to be poisoned by certain aspects of secular society.[/i]

No, see, when I said "better" I meant "more good"*. Filling your kids' minds with your beliefs before they have a chance to develop their own may sound like a good thing to you, but it really isn't.

*What I had really meant (I wouldn't even have had to comment on this if you hadn't been a complete idiot and said that a Catholic education is better) was a better quality.

[i]What exactly do you mean by "accept other religions"? Have you seen anyone here (who obviously does not agree with your religion) advocate beating you up? Yet you (who does not "accept" Catholicism) keep condoning, advocating or whatever beating up on homeschooled children.

We accept people, we reject ideas. [/i]

You impose your religion on all non-believers and tell them that if they don't accept your beliefs as truth then they'll burn eternally after their death. I'm on a Christian board as a non-Christian. Do you honestly expect me to converse with you in a manner that suggests that I believe in your religion? Go to a Shinto board and give it a try not pointing out every contradiction in their beliefs and arguing with them.

[littleflower+JMJ]

Chris stop making personal attacks.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote]He says that no one has the right to reject God, but they have a right to believe what they want.[/quote]

The second clause mistates my argument.

[quote] Any non-God based religion would be legit and illegit according to that. As would atheism.[/quote]

You only think this because you misunderstood my second premise.

[Chris Zewe]

Raphael seems unable to assume a position of thinking outside of his own clichéd beliefs, so I'll ignore him.

[i]This means (since you seem to not understand simple logical thinking) that,

-Freedom is from God, not the state

-The state can give people the ability to practice their freedom, it can't give them freedom

-No one can be justified in rejecting God, but everyone has the ability to do so (like robbing a bank)

-Everyone has the God given right to not be forced into believing anything, even God.

Since you have trouble with that... lets make it simplified.

Freedom is from God, the state can only protect your abality to give it to you.
You can't be "right" and reject God, but no one can be forced into making you believe in God.

God bless Chris,

Mikey

P.S. I'll refrain from saying Pax Christ around you, you tend to not like peace much. [/i]

So you're saying that no one has the right not to believe in God but they have to as long as they're not forced. The subject matter of this quote has been changed so much it's lost all sensibility.