Abortion

[dairygirl4u2c]

I think I am pro-life right now, but not sure. I realize this uncertain attitude would be hell for many Catholics, but this kind of stance I think is healthy, at least in general.

Since I didn't have a very grasp on it before, (plus I think I've gotten better at expressing myself though obvisouly I have work to do and would have time to spend if I really wanted to make a good introduction to this issue) I would like to revisit an old topic. That is, what do we say to women who don't think the baby is well a baby? I realize you would say just because they say it isn't, doesn't mean it isn't. But remember, that just because we say it is, doesn't mean it is either.

Now I know you'll say, what else could it be? and you'll say when does it become a human then? But those aren't answers, those are just questions. It seems like the healthy thing to do is admit that you don't know. And if you'll grant that much you'll say the healthy thing is to give benefit of the doubt. For Catholics, I realize your faith requires you to think that it is, and I think that's fantastic. And I realize your faith is that you shouldn't allow others to have one, at any point in time, but I don't necessarily understand why that is your faith. I say "any point in time" because 90% of abortions are in the first trimester. Also, the supreme court rule that abortions are only allowable in the second and third trimester if the mother's health is in jeopardy. I realize "health" is a term that is often abused. So it might seem we should be arguing against this abuse, instead of necessarily the whole issue. And maybe make some standards along the line of the pregnancy, but not necessarily for the whole term.

But then nothing if we should be strictly pro-choice. The main reason I think I am pro-choice is because I think it might be philosophically and scientifically sound that the baby is a human. This is the only way I'd be fully pro-choice. But I'm not really sure what stance to take.

Because, otherwise, you'd have a disputed human. And I'd say that man's freedom is worth more than disputed life. And I should make the note, "reasonably" disputed. Of course you can dispute any life, and that's your perogative. But if you're going to dispute someone who clearly is human, then I will not stand for it. If you think the baby is clearly human, I understand if you do not want to stand for it. But it seems that ultimately the only way you can say that is because it is your faith. And the faith may not make sense to me since; usually I consider legallly recognizing the morals of people who have morals that go against ours (unless it's hurting another person) to be the moral thing to do. Abortion is right now up in the air I suppose (because of that hurting another person possibility).

I realize the pro-choicer's arguments are usually very poor. But that doesn't mean they all are. I would just like some comments. Discussing these things make others understand each other better

Edited September 20, 2004 by dairygirl4u2c

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

I think the question is how is it not a human. Otherwise we would have spontaneous generation in the womb from an inanimate chunk of matter. I don't think we can merely set standards on it. If we did that we would have to set standards on all forms of murder. I think that murder is sinful no matter what a person considers moral. Morality isn't relative to individuals. The moral standard is what God wills.
All that aside, the Church is bound to the consensus of Fathers that say abortion is evil.

[IcePrincessKRS]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' date='Sep 20 2004, 03:55 PM'] Now I know you'll say, what else could it be? and you'll say when does it become a human then? But those aren't answers, those are just questions. It seems like the healthy thing to do is admit that you don't know. [/quote]
The problem with this statement is that we DO know. We know through various scientific procedures, tests, etc. (such as genetic testing which can prove without a doubt that the baby in the womb is in fact human), even photographs taken INSIDE the womb. When you have so many undisputable facts claims like "We can't know for sure" or "Its just a blob of tissue" are just a weak way of trying to deny the facts. No scientist ever has and never will be able to prove that the baby is not human. The Dude is right, the burden of "proof" lies with those trying to argue its not human (not that he said exactly that, but you can gather as much from what he said).

Edited September 21, 2004 by IcePrincessKRS

[Flash]

Very well put.

[Sinner]

Dairy.......keep seeking. Keep studying. The evidence is in front of us. You will see the truth. Our second child flunked the Down's Syndrome test. She is normal. And it wouldn't matter if she were not. If I knew then they were testing, I would not have had it done.

[carrdero]

This was a question that someone submitted to me for GOD.

Question: Dear GOD,
Abortion. What do you think?
– cannie1

Answer: I K(NOW) you cannot discontinue the existence of a soul through the act of abortion. The human shell may BE destroyed, but the entity that was planned to occupy it is not. Any entities that choose to incarnate into the physical realm do not incarnate into a body that is planned for termination. REMEMBER that ALL matter can BE modified, created, and destroyed, but the soul remains forever, if that is what the soul desires.

[carrdero]

[quote]I think that murder is sinful no matter what a person considers moral. Morality isn't relative to individuals. The moral standard is what God wills.[/quote]

I think that murder is death. People die, animals die, we all die. Is death a sin? Then we are all sinners.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

Murder is delibrately causing death for selfish/malicious reasons.
Murder isn't "death", it is a cause of it. The sin goes to the murderer. I never said death was a sin.

[Theoketos]

Drawing the line for humanity at birth is convienent but arbitrary. Honestly the logical conculsion of abortion of the un-born is killing of the new born.

[carrdero]

thedude writes: Murder is delibrately causing death for selfish/malicious reasons.
Murder isn't "death", it is a cause of it. The sin goes to the murderer. I never said death was a sin.

We all have to die and we all have to go out of this world in some way.

If you believe that murder is sinful what would be a proper/acceptable way to exit this physical existence, death by disease, death by nature, death by accident? When is the proper life span to expect people to pass from this earth, before birth, prematurely, 2 years, 19,60,90? There are no guarantees when it comes to death.

With abortion I just do not believe that there is an entity occupying the human shell until birth. I guess a sort of reversed example could be likened to a chicken that is beheaded. The entity has long passed from the physical existence and all that remains is a temporary active shell.

[Oik]

[quote]I just do not believe that there is an entity occupying the human shell until birth.[/quote]
Carrdero, you don't have an authority for your statements.

[Oik]

[quote]For Catholics, I realize your faith requires you to think that it is, and I think that's fantastic. And I realize your faith is that you shouldn't allow others to have one, at any point in time, but I don't necessarily understand why that is your faith. [/quote]

Our views are not forced, our views, like all views are embraced.

[quote]Because, otherwise, you'd have a disputed human.[/quote]

Acutally, no human being can be disputed, from the moment of conception, that is, after fertilization, the person begins because the meeting of the sperm and egg created a [u]unique[/u] life. Unique DNA is present at conception, this is a human being.

[carrdero]

Oik writes: Acutally, no human being can be disputed, from the moment of conception, that is, after fertilization, the person begins because the meeting of the sperm and egg created a unique life.

Actually it creates a unique shell that will eventually (read: hopefully) lead to a unique life.

Oik writes: Unique DNA is present at conception, this is a human being.

Actually it is a human BEcoming.

It's like a Polaroid snapshot. The picture isn't clear till the film is developed.
I feel so illustrative today.

[Theoketos]

What if you took a baby out the womb and put it back in?

Drawing the line at birth is arbitrary. Ask God about it.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

[quote]We all have to die and we all have to go out of this world in some way.[/quote]
Everybody does die, but that is definately not a justification for/nor related to abortion in anyway whatsoever.

[quote]Actually it creates a unique shell that will eventually (read: hopefully) lead to a unique life.[/quote]
A "shell"? What is this "shell"? If an embryo isn't a human, than neither is a prepubescent child.

[quote]Actually it is a human BEcoming.[/quote]
How can one form of life (or an inanimate object) naturally and spontaneously generate into another form of life?

[jasJis]

Unless one believes humanity is just a huge 'cosmic accident of heat and protiens' then you can't deny that a human life inherently has dignity and worth.

The second point is if we are PHYSICAL or SPIRITUAL or BOTH (embodied spirits). The Church teaches we are embodied spirits. We are real and the same person, both spiritually and physically. The fact that our physical self is important too lies in Jesus being resurrected both Body and Soul and that we will have Glorified Bodies. This leads us to the conclusion that both our physical and spiritual selves are inherently dignified. We cannot disrespect our physical body without disrespecting our spiritual self and visa-versa.

The question about "when" destruction of certain cells/molecules is abortion is being answered "when" it has a soul. Since we know the physical and spiritual identity is connected, we know that we are doing injustice to a soul when we do injustice ot a body.

This entire debate is based on the selfish hope that we can destroy some cells before it is a person with a soul. The act of destruction or prevention of specific cells being imbued with a soul is an affront against the very idea of the potential 'being' of an individual. Just the contemplation is destructive of the dignity of humanity in all stages of 'being', whether physical life or spiritual life.

Since the soul has no mass, weight, color, scent, or physically discernable character, we cannot know without some question, when it is or isn't present in cells. In respect to humanity's God given inherent dignity, our answer should be on the cautious side of giving dignity to all that "might" be human. Strictly defining "human" with temporal measurement is denying the fact of our spiritual dignity.

[azaelia]

"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you.." Jeremiah 1:5

[carrdero]

[quote]Theoketos writes: What if you took a baby out the womb and put it back in?[/quote]

Once you take a baby out of the womb you cannot return it. That entity’s life, (read: physical existence) whatever shape it takes begins then.

One of the charities that GOD and I work with is the March Of Dimes and they are progressing towards research that will help save premature births by simulating womb-like conditions so that children are given a few moments of maturity to help it develop. It cannot replace the mother’s womb but it may give babies a better chance toward survival.

[quote]Theoketos writes: Drawing the line at birth is arbitrary. Ask God about it. [/quote]

Question: Dear GOD,
Abortion. What do you think?
– cannie1

Answer: I K(NOW) you cannot discontinue the existence of a soul through the act of abortion. The human shell may BE destroyed, but the entity that was planned to occupy it is not. Any entities that choose to incarnate into the physical realm do not incarnate into a body that is planned for termination. REMEMBER that ALL matter can BE modified, created, and destroyed, but the soul remains forever, if that is what the soul desires.

Well I didn’t actually ask the question but I did document and publish the answer.

[littleflower+JMJ]

what are you talking about carrdero?


it is not a Shell, i have no earthly idea where you got that from, its a unborn baby......have you not studied science? and medicine?

im sorry but a shell cannot do things and moev on its own

[quote]With abortion I just do not believe that there is an entity occupying the human shell until birth. I guess a sort of reversed example could be likened to a chicken that is beheaded. The entity has long passed from the physical existence and all that remains is a temporary active shell. [/quote]

you say you dont believe there is a person inside there?

the baby is sucking his thumb, can kick and eat, have perferances in food, can recognize she/he's mother by her voice, have a heart beat, a fully developed brain and body, unique fingerprints......even has his/her own DREAMS!!

not to mention has 2 arms, 2 eyes, a nose, 2 ears, a mouth, , 10 fingers, 10 toes.....yup! it passes the human test for me!

fact is she/he is a Baby, created by GOD from the moment of conception......

its murder which is [b]wrong[/b]

GOD is the giver of LIFE, therefore when we draw our dying breathe it is ONLY He who takes it....and no one else..

when did you get authority to say when LIFE was life? the fact is you dont....God created human LIFE and since it is hte great thing ever go be given, should not and cannot be killed....

just because it doesnt meet you defintion of a human hardly changes the fact that it is....

i have not earthly idea where your getting your "answers" but we do got something from him written in stone from GOD Himself.....



[b]Thou shall not kill[/b]---GOD

[lifeteenchick527]

yepyep lil flower... to me there is no way u can say its not a baby...and so therefore since it is a baby it is a human...and therefore diserves respect and the right to live....since when did God let us determine who lives and who doesnt?