The Pope

[Seatbelt Blue]

Alright, guys. I need some help. I find myself drifting toward the Orthodox belief regarding the papacy - "first among equals."

Please stop me.

[Seatbelt Blue]

Note: Specifically, how is the pope the Universal Pastor if there were communities so distant that Rome was hardly on the Radar screen?

Ethiopia? Armenia? India? China? How was the pope the "universal shepherd" of those communities?

[geetarplayer]

I don't have anything to help you out, here, but I too am interested.

-Mark

[Seatbelt Blue]

Guys, come on. I need help. I don't know who else to ask.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

Hmmm...

I can't explain Papal stuff very well...don't want to give you misinformation...

We need PhatCatholic or StColette...

Nick? Jen? Ya there?

[Guest Aluigi]

because he had authority over the doctrine. he doesn't have to be in contact with the whole Church to be universal shepherd. if a question arose over doctrine, it always was subject to the pope's final answer. the pope is the patriarch of the west in the same way all the other patriarchs were patriarch of their area, he is ALSO the one holding the one office of ROCK upon which the Church is built. He has authority over the entire Church as Pope, while he has specific authority over the Roman Rite and the other patriarchs have authority over their rites. he holds two different offices, one as patriarch of the latin rite, and one as Universal Shepherd of the entire Church keeping the entire Church unified under him.

[Seatbelt Blue]

[quote name='Aluigi' date='Sep 27 2004, 04:44 PM'] because he had authority over the doctrine. he doesn't have to be in contact with the whole Church to be universal shepherd. if a question arose over doctrine, it always was subject to the pope's final answer. the pope is the patriarch of the west in the same way all the other patriarchs were patriarch of their area, he is ALSO the one holding the one office of ROCK upon which the Church is built. He has authority over the entire Church as Pope, while he has specific authority over the Roman Rite and the other patriarchs have authority over their rites. he holds two different offices, one as patriarch of the latin rite, and one as Universal Shepherd of the entire Church keeping the entire Church unified under him. [/quote]
How could he be universal shepherd and keep unity in churches _he didn't even know existed?_

I can see first among equals very clearly, but I'm having difficulty seeing universal shepherd.

[Guest Aluigi]

well, he didn't have the role of patriarch over those churches no question.

but ultimately, he holds authority over the doctrine of the entire universal Church.

[Seatbelt Blue]

[quote name='Aluigi' date='Sep 27 2004, 04:48 PM'] well, he didn't have the role of patriarch over those churches no question.

but ultimately, he holds authority over the doctrine of the entire universal Church. [/quote]
But these churches were so far away as to be untouched by his decisions. The Armenians were monophysites, for example.

[Guest Aluigi]

so he was unable to correct them... yeah... what's the point?

he can't be superman and fly over to each church everytime they make a mistake. (well, now he can with modern technology...)

[geetarplayer]

We need some Church Scholars in here... or atleast some Church Scholars-in-Training!

-Mark

[StColette]

Yes sir I'm here

Okay I'm sorta understanding this I think, the question is still somewhat unclear.

If you're asking how the Pope is the Universal Shepard of the Church that's pretty simple

There is but one church, as the Creed says, one holy apostolic catholic chuch. Remember catholic in the lower case form as it is said in the Creed refers both to the Universal body of Christ and to the Catholic Church itself.

[quote]Note: Specifically, how is the pope the Universal Pastor if there were communities so distant that Rome was hardly on the Radar screen?

Ethiopia? Armenia? India? China? How was the pope the "universal shepherd" of those communities? [/quote]

Okay here I'm guessing you are referring back in History correct ? Well, remember the Church has many members which are forms of authority and they all answer back to the Pope. Even in the times of the early Church the communication between the various catholic "communities" and Rome were not in anyway demenished. The communities had priests who kept in contact with the bishops they were put under, and the bishops kept in contact with the Pope.

[quote]I find myself drifting toward the Orthodox belief regarding the papacy - "first among equals."[/quote]

I've actually never heard "first among equals" Wording like that could lead to the problems of " The first shall be last and the last shall be first" I've seen that verse thrown around so much in Papacy debates it's hard to forget it. The Pope is the head of the Church but he is also more importantly he is a servant to the Church, which means he is a servant.

I dunno if this clears anything up. If it doesn't possibly try to expand on the meaning behind these questions.

God Bless,
Jennie

[Guest Aluigi]

the Pope holds an office which keeps the entire Church unified. those armenian churches were monophysites because they couldn't be UNIFIED into the whole Church by the Pope. their patriarch was unable to defer to the authority of the Pope so he couldn't correct his flock.

the Pope holds the dual offices of patriarch of the west and universal shepherd. without him as universal shepherd, the unity would fall apart.
[img]http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-9/837215/simplepopechart.JPG[/img]

[Guest Aluigi]

geetarplayer, that hurts

i'm sposeta be Church Militant....

[cathoholic]

have you tried the caholic apologetics phorum... or go [url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=16311"]here[/url], oh, too late. You guys got it covered... never mind :leave:

Edited September 27, 2004 by cathoholic

[StColette]

I would like to add something that I forgot to mention. With this great distance the Pope could not watch the progress or behavior of each community as the Pope is able to do now. Like I said there are many people in authority that help the Church run smoothly. It is up to priests and bishops to keep their parishes in communion with Rome. I'm sure the Pope during those earlier times depended greatly on the ability of the Church's priests and bishops to keep their flock in line, so to speak.

[cathoholic]

kind of like when Paul wrote to the Corinthians?

Edited September 27, 2004 by cathoholic

[geetarplayer]

[quote name='Aluigi' date='Sep 27 2004, 05:59 PM'] geetarplayer, that hurts

i'm sposeta be Church Militant.... [/quote]
Sorry Aluigi! It's hard to tell without the little icon there! *hugs*

-Mark

[StColette]

Yep kinda like that Cathoholic, Paul was correcting them and helping to guide them

[Guest Aluigi]

anyway, i'm just gonna rest my case by siting your example:

The Armenians were monophysites

The Armenian patriarch didn't get a chance to defer to the Pope, and thus the Armenian church began to drift away from the unity. I can't think right now, but the Armenians eventually defered and came back into full communion with the Church rejecting monophysitism, right? That wouldn't have happened without the Pope.