Mandotory For All To Believe In The Trinity.

[White Knight]

Hi I was wanting to know, is it mandotory that everyone who is Protestant or Catholic to believe in the Holy Trinity? three forms of God, yet one God, three forms are all equal to one, yet they are utlmately One God.


If you dont believe in the Trinity, is it possible to be a True Believer? I could be wrong, but in my opinion I think its [b]"NO"[/b] Am I wrong to say this, or is there any other way to say something different, yet related to this topic?


I got in a agruement about this.... and I found it hard to answer this. yet the Agruement stoped, no one over spoke the other or anything, but..... I just wanna know that main question up there.

Edited September 29, 2004 by White Knight

[DominaNostra]

I think you have to believe in the Blessed Trinity to be a "true believer", i.e., to be saved. I also think, however, that you have to be Catholic to be a true believer (this is what the Church teaches). You will most likely receive an answer that "The Trinity is a true belief, but a believer can be invisibly united to the Trinity by practicing his false religion faithfully." That seems to be the consensus of most Catholics nowadays. I know that when my priest talked to me about this, he said that the only true believers are Catholic because those are the only people who believe what Christ Himself taught. To be a follower of Christ is not only to simply acknowledge Him as God but also to follow all those things He has commanded, cf., St. Matthew xxviii.19,20.
"Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world."

[popestpiusx]

DominaNostra is correct. It is absolutely necessary that one believe in the Trinity. If you do not believe in the Trinity, you do not believe in (numerically) the same God as the Catholic Church. It is a truth that must be held by all believers, lest they cease to be believers.

[Guest JeffCR07]

I must object, albeit only slightly.

If you are asking me whether or not it is mandatory for all to believe in the trinity, my answer is yes.

If you are asking me whether or not only someone who believes in the Trinity can be saved, then my answer is no.

Even the most staunch Rigorist would accept that Moses is indeed in Heaven, however, the Doctrine of the Trinity had not been developed and so he could not believe it. Thus, we must understand the necessity of Trinitarian belief not in the sense that "only those who actually believe the Trinity CAN go to heaven" but rather, that those who reject the Trinity cannot.

I would just like to note that I do maintain - as all logical persons should - that one who, in this day in age, has never heard of the True Church and the doctrinal truths therein, but who genuinely strives to seek God and dies in a state of sanctifying grace can indeed go to heaven, for they are, objectively speaking the same as the Jews.

Allow me to illustrate the argument put forth by the opponents of this belief, which is the official teaching of the Holy Catholic Church, as outlined in the Catechism:

My opponents would argue that a person born before the death and resurrection of our Lord would be able to enter heaven only if that person lived according to the degree of Truth that had been revealed to him at that point in time. Thus, the Jews could be saved via their covenant with God, and non-Jews, such as Job, could be saved based one faithfully following the Truth that they understood.

However, they would argue that once Christ has Risen, and the Fullness of the Truth has been revealed, it is absolutely necessary to believe that Fullness in order to enter Heaven, and belief in anything less will necessitate Hell.

The problem with this argument is that it makes the salvific efficacy of God after Christ's sacrifice [i]less[/i] that what it was before, because a person who has never been witness to the fullness of the truth is incapable of salvation, whereas he was once capable of being saved by following the Truth that he knows. We all understand, however, that Christ brought [i]salvation[/i] and therefore his sacrifice could never rightly have this effect.

Thus, it is only possible to conclude what the Church Teaches:

If a person strives, to the best of their ability, to live according to the Truth that they know, this desire for the True God may result in a baptism of desire, and, should this happen, if that individual were to die in a state of sanctifying grace, heaven would indeed be attainable.

Now, my opponents would probably retort by saying something akin to "well whats the point in evangelizing and baptising if it isnt necessary?" The answer is that it is vitally necessary, it always has been and always will be. The above described situation is not a normative situation, and even a cursory glance will show that would be supremely difficult to accomplish. Moreover, one in the above situation could never be certain of whether or not such a baptism of desire has actually happened. Thus, we see that it is vitally necessary that we spread the Truth of the Holy Mother Church to all peoples in all the ends of the earth, that they might hear the fullness of truth, thus growing in knowledge and understanding of God, that they might be given the Sacraments, thus bestowing upon them the revitalising and sanctifying Grace that is so necessary in order to strengthen us that we might "go forth and sin no more, that they might hear the call of Christ not merely to do the bare minimum in order to get into heaven, but to live as earthly saints and icons of Christ.

- Your Brother In Christ, Jeff

[White Knight]

Well Ive been discussing the trinity issue in a thread titled "Blue Eyed Jesus" the topic was mainly discussing what the Jesus may have looked like, and I brought up the subject that he could look like anyone he wanted to because He was and IS God, and God can do anything, so I mentioned the trinity, to make a long story short, some person tryed challenging me to say, its not mandotory to believe in the Trinity to be a true believer.


I however disagree with this. I believe one has to believe in the Trinity to be a True believer, but I just wanna know if this is correct.

Edited September 29, 2004 by White Knight

[Guest Aluigi]

dude, it's Catholic Dogma, yeah u gotta believe it

defined by coucils and popes under the guidance of the Holy Spirit! not to mention contained within the inspired words of the Sacred Scriptures

[Enda]

[quote name='JeffCR07' date='Sep 29 2004, 06:29 PM'] I would just like to note that I do maintain - as all logical persons should - that one who, in this day in age, has never heard of the True Church and the doctrinal truths therein, but who genuinely strives to seek God and dies in a state of sanctifying grace can indeed go to heaven, for they are, objectively speaking the same as the Jews.

[/quote]
Not really. Jews are a race of people, it also just happens to be a religion.

[HartfordWhalers]

Jeff, you are right in that a person before Christ was not required to believe in the Blessed Trinity, just as he was not required to be baptized, but now after Pentecost Baptism is necessary and belief in the Holy Trinity is necessary. Without either of these TODAY there is no salvation.

[Theologian in Training]

[url="http://www.creeds.net/ancient/Quicumque.html"]http://www.creeds.net/ancient/Quicumque.html[/url]

The Catholic Church used to recite this, unfortunately, it was done away with after Vatican II. It is a composite of Trinitarian belief.

Also, if Trinitarian belief is not foundational for Catholic belief, then what sets the Trinity apart from the Hindu's version of three dieties or any polytheistic religion?

The Trinity is a backbone of our faith, and, even as the CCC attests our ultimate goal is entrance into the Blessed Trinity.

So, if it is not foundational then why not believe anything else or nothing at all for that matter?

(Note: I know you do not hold this belief, it is more of a short response to those that hold this belief)

God Bless

[HartfordWhalers]

[quote name='Theologian in Training' date='Sep 29 2004, 08:07 PM'] [url="http://www.creeds.net/ancient/Quicumque.html"]http://www.creeds.net/ancient/Quicumque.html[/url]

The Catholic Church used to recite this, unfortunately, it was done away with after Vatican II. It is a composite of Trinitarian belief.

Also, if Trinitarian belief is not foundational for Catholic belief, then what sets the Trinity apart from the Hindu's version of three dieties or any polytheistic religion?

The Trinity is a backbone of our faith, and, even as the CCC attests our ultimate goal is entrance into the Blessed Trinity.

So, if it is not foundational then why not believe anything else or nothing at all for that matter?

(Note: I know you do not hold this belief, it is more of a short response to those that hold this belief)

God Bless [/quote]
Yes, it truly is a shame. Before Vatican II priests recited that nearly every single Sunday in the Divine Office. It is very clear, as well, of the necessity of believing not only in the Trinity but also in the Church to be saved (translation is better I think from Catholic Encyclopedia): "Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith. Which Faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly."

Edited September 30, 2004 by HartfordWhalers

[jasJis]

One doesn't take a test at the Pearly Gates to see what one believes and understands. Satan has a better comprehension of the Trinity then we can even begin to approach.

God measures when we rejected or refused to accept what He graced us to understand. A Baptized baby doesn't know, but was given salvific grace anyways. An adult born in the Amazon jungle may never hear the Gospel, but respond positively to the small amount of grace God granted them. God knows what was given to each of us.

The tricky part is that us in the Christian world are being abundantly graced with hearing the Gospel and we can easily start rejecting this grace. Ignorance does not save us because we have no reason to be ignorant. We know we are to accept the Truth of the Trinity. We don't (and can't) fully comprehend it, but we can accept it. We must not reject what we don't fully understand.

Edited September 30, 2004 by jasJis

[HartfordWhalers]

[quote name='jasJis' date='Sep 30 2004, 07:52 AM'] An adult born in the Amazon jungle may never hear the Gospel, but respond positively to the small amount of grace God granted them. God knows what was given to each of us.

...

Ignorance does not save us because we have no reason to be ignorant. [/quote]
You aren't saying that this unbaptized person in the jungle who is outside the Church can be saved, are you??

[jasJis]

[quote name='HartfordWhalers' date='Sep 30 2004, 08:47 AM'] You aren't saying that this unbaptized person in the jungle who is outside the Church can be saved, are you?? [/quote]
Let's not beat a dead horse. You know perfectly well what I'm saying. I have trust that the Mercy of God is more complex and sophisticated than your simplistic fundamentalist pendantic opinion. Dig up the other thread, don't mess this one up.

[HartfordWhalers]

lol

[White Knight]

Whats up with this, theres no very many people posting anything anymore.

[HartfordWhalers]

I guess it's too late... :sleep:

[Guest JeffCR07]

[quote]Jeff, you are right in that a person before Christ was not required to believe in the Blessed Trinity, just as he was not required to be baptized, but now after Pentecost Baptism is necessary and belief in the Holy Trinity is necessary. Without either of these TODAY there is no salvation[/quote]

Hartford, God Bless! Sorry I didn't get back to you earlier, I've been really busy with school and my "phatmass" time has been divided between the real phatmass and defending the Holy Mother Church on other online forums.


As I'm sure you read my whole post, I am wondering whether or not you could reply to my point that directly deals with the above comment. If one acknowledges that God allowed people to gain salvation if they followed the Truth as far as it had been revealed to them, as you have, but states that it is now no longer so, then you have put yourself in quite a theological bind.

As I pointed out, this position asserts that Christ's sacrifice [i]decreased[/i] the number of people who could be saved by [i]tightening[/i] the mode by which salvation can be obtained. (ie, the identical person who would be saved before the death of Christ, by following the Truth as far as it has been revealed to him, would no longer be saved after Christ's death because he has never heard of the Trinity).

I would love to hear a response to this point, because I maintain that it is not fitting to God that the Sacrifice of the Lamb [i]decrease[/i] the efficacy of God's plan of salvation.

- Your Brother In Christ, Jeff

[HartfordWhalers]

[quote name='JeffCR07' date='Oct 1 2004, 12:36 AM']
Hartford, God Bless! Sorry I didn't get back to you earlier, I've been really busy with school and my "phatmass" time has been divided between the real phatmass and defending the Holy Mother Church on other online forums.


As I'm sure you read my whole post, I am wondering whether or not you could reply to my point that directly deals with the above comment. If one acknowledges that God allowed people to gain salvation if they followed the Truth as far as it had been revealed to them, as you have, but states that it is now no longer so, then you have put yourself in quite a theological bind.

As I pointed out, this position asserts that Christ's sacrifice [i]decreased[/i] the number of people who could be saved by [i]tightening[/i] the mode by which salvation can be obtained. (ie, the identical person who would be saved before the death of Christ, by following the Truth as far as it has been revealed to him, would no longer be saved after Christ's death because he has never heard of the Trinity).

I would love to hear a response to this point, because I maintain that it is not fitting to God that the Sacrifice of the Lamb [i]decrease[/i] the efficacy of God's plan of salvation.

- Your Brother In Christ, Jeff [/quote]
The number of those saved is much greater now (or rather it is greater when the Church was at Her strongest, before the vast exodus from the Church after the council) on two accounts: 1) there are more people, hence a greater number saved, and 2) Not only are there more people, but the Church is over a great majority of them (still now over 1 billion, but during the Middle Ages and even into the discovery of the New World the Church was nearly 90% or thereabouts of all men), whereas before Christ a very small majority of the world followed Judaism, and there were many pagans. St. Paul taught us that a pagan cannot be saved, because it is against reason to assert there can be more than one God, so therefore, only those who believed in one God before Christ could be saved.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='HartfordWhalers' date='Oct 1 2004, 02:11 AM'] ...the Church is over a great majority of them (still now over 1 billion, but during the Middle Ages and even into the discovery of the New World the Church was nearly 90% or thereabouts of all men)... [/quote]
This is just not accurate, if I understand you correctly. Unfortunately, Christianity has never been embraced by 90% of the world's population.

God bless.

[jasJis]

For a Catholic, which is 100% of Christian Truth, one must believe in the Creed completely. That does not mean understand every aspect of it, but to accept it and pray for grace to grow in understanding. The Creed contains the concept of the Trinity. To reject any of the Creed due to pride, apathy, arrogance, any act of will to not be open to God to help, could be judged by God as ultimately heresey.