St. Michael

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='azaelia' date='Sep 30 2004, 02:56 PM'] Oh lovely. So you're telling me my Confirmation saint "doesn't exist"? [/quote]
No, that's a misinterpretation of Church teaching.

The Church says that these are no longer considered saints for public purposes because they were made "saints" by popular legend before the formal canonization process. They may have existed and may be saints, but the Church can't say for certain that they did.

According to Fr. Levis on EWTN, they are still privately venerable.

Furthermore, many others became "saints" by popular legend before the formal canonization process, including several people who died as Pagans (but, given their teachings, may have qualified for Baptism of Desire), including Virgil, Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle.

We don't consider them to be saints anymore, either, and formally speaking, they never were declared to be saints, they were only called that by small, grass-roots efforts, but that doesn't mean they didn't exist or that they weren't holy. Virgil, in fact, was referred to by contemporaries as "Virgil Virgo" (Virgil the Virgin) because he was known for his chastity. He also wrote a poem about the golden child from heaven who would save humanity. Many Church scholars have long considered the possibility that this was private revelation made to a virtuous pagan. Fr. Peter Stravinskas, a famous priest, temporary head of the Oratory of John Henry Cardinal Newman, a frequent guest on EWTN, and an acquantance of mine, knows quite a bit on this subject.

[PedroX]

Donna,

I'm still looking for the 9-11 saint. However, this year since it fell on a Saturday we celebrated it as memorial dedicated to Our Lady, as can be done on any Saturday not given to a feast or Solemnity.

Zachary,

Your use of the word accurate is still misleading. We celebrate feasts solemnities etc on the days told to us by the church. The day the church gives us is the "accurate" day of the feast. Otherwise, we could never cannonize someone who died on the same day as anyone else.

Raphael,

While your explanation holds true for some saints, ie St. Christopher, it does not for others. Additionally, one must be very careful with these explanations. If millions of people prayed to someone who never existed would they be guilty of idolatry? Certainly you are not accusing our spiritual ancestors of this, are you?

peace...

[dUSt]

[quote name='HartfordWhalers' date='Sep 29 2004, 08:36 PM'] I believe in what the Church authentically teaches, and I believe the Pope can err when not speaking infallibly, which the Church teaches. [/quote]
I think you're wrong.

The pope cannot error when speaking on matters of faith or morals--it doesn't just apply to infallible statements.

Picking and choosing what you wish to believe is the equivalent of Protestantism.

[Brother Adam]

Hartford,

I just recieved emails over the past day from other converts who believe such positions held by other Catholics are a danger to their own Catholic faith. While I've never shared this before, you've almost convinced me twice in the past to give up belief in God. For most of us as converts, we've done enough study to know it is Catholicism or nothing. Think about it. As Dust said, your position is a dangerous one.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote]Raphael,

While your explanation holds true for some saints, ie St. Christopher, it does not for others. Additionally, one must be very careful with these explanations. If millions of people prayed to someone who never existed would they be guilty of idolatry? Certainly you are not accusing our spiritual ancestors of this, are you?[/quote]

I did not mean to imply that all saints who were made so by legend are false saints, but that, with some such saints, the Church has done retrospective study and determined that there was not sufficient evidence in the first place.

Furthermore, idolatry is the worship of idols and false gods ([i]idol[/i]+[i]latria[/i]), prayer to saints who aren't saints or who never really existed wouldn't be worship anyway (prayer directed toward saints is [i]dulia[/i], as you know, not [i]latria[/i]), so it wouldn't be idolatry. However, Fr. Levis addressed this as well, saying that if, for instance, St. Christopher really doesn't exist, God would hear the prayer in good faith anyway.

Certainly other saints, such as St. Jerome, St. Augustine, St. Patrick, St. Athanasius, St. Anselm, etc. have left enough proof and must be believed to be saints.

In Christ,

Micah

PS-This information is on the saints is mostly from Fr. Peter Stravinskas and our personal conversations. Some people haven't heard of him, so I'll give you his credentials: [url="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=books&field-author=Stravinskas%2C%252520Peter%252520M.%252520J./104-4810838-5257530"]here they are.[/url]

[cmotherofpirl]

PHILOMENA

Also known as
Filomena; Filumena; Philumena; Philomene; Thaumaturga of the Nineteenth Century; Wonder Worker of the Nineteenth Century
Memorial
11 August; cultus suppressed in 1961 by Pope John XXIII due to the lack of historical information
Profile
Little is known of her life, and the information was have was received by private revelation from her. Martyred at about age 14 in the early days of the Church.

In 1802 the remains of a young woman were found in the catacomb of Saint Priscilla on the Via Salaria. It was covered by stones, the symbols on which indicated that the body was a martyr named Saint Philomena. The bones were exhumed, cataloged, and effectively forgotten since there was so little known about the person.

In 1805 Canon Francis de Lucia of Mugnano, Italy was in the Treasury of the Rare Collection of Christian Antiquity (Treasury of Relics) in the Vatican. When he reached the relics of Saint Philomena he was suddenly struck with a spiritual joy, and requested that he be allowed to enshrine them in a chapel in Mugnano. After some disagreements, settled by the cure of Canon Francis following prayers to Philomena, he was allowed to translate the relics to Mugnano. Miracles began to be reported at the shrine including cures of cancer, healing of wounds, and the Miracle of Mugnano in which Venerable Pauline Jaricot was cured a severe heart ailment overnight. Philomena became the only person recognized as a Saint solely on the basis of miraculous intercession as nothing historical was known of her except her name and the evidence of her martyrdom.

Pope Leo XII granted permission for the erection of altars and churches in her honor. Pope Gregory XVI authorized her public veneration, and named her patroness of the Living Rosary. The cure of Pope Pius IX, while archbishop of Imola, was attributed to Philomena; in 1849, he named her patroness of the Children of Mary. Pope Leo XIII approved the Confraternity of Saint Philomena, and raised it to an Archconfraternity. Pope Pius X raised the Archconfraternity to a Universal Archconfraternity, and named Saint John Vianney its patron. Saint John Vianney himself called Philomena the New Light of the Church Militant, and had a strong and well-known devotion to her. Others with known devotion to her include Saint Anthony Mary Claret, Saint Euphrasia Pelletier, Saint Francis Xavier Cabrini, Saint John Nepomucene Neumann, Saint Madeline Sophie Barat, Saint Peter Chanel, Saint Peter Julian Eymard, Blessed Anna Maria Taigi, and Venerable Pauline Jaricot.
Died
relics discovered on 24 May 1802; relics translated to Mugnano, Italy on 10 August 1805
Canonized
by Pope Gregory XVI

[qfnol31]

[quote name='PedroX' date='Sep 30 2004, 03:50 PM'] Zachary,

Your use of the word accurate is still misleading.  We celebrate feasts solemnities etc on the days told to us by the church.  The day the church gives us is the "accurate" day of the feast.  Otherwise, we could never cannonize someone who died on the same day as anyone else.  [/quote]
What I meant by more accurate is that it is closer to the actual day than before (in one of my earlier posts). I agree that not all are on their actual day of death, but often that's because the Church wanted to celebrate their feast days as well as those on the day they died.

Edited October 1, 2004 by qfnol31

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

What about St. Ursula? There are many things named for her but I hear she never existed.

[HartfordWhalers]

[quote name='azaelia' date='Sep 30 2004, 01:56 PM'] Oh lovely. So you're telling me my Confirmation saint "doesn't exist"? [/quote]
No no no! On the contrary, he was saying that the current hierarchy/majority of Catholics say that those people never existed, though those who believe in what the Chuch has always taught, that these people did exist, say that all of them ARE real people. I assume he believes they existed too, considering his posts here being traditional and that he used "don't exist" in quotes.

[Donna]

[color=orange]See-Mom![/color]
Thank you.
Double thank you for posting on Philomena ( )


[color=gray]Raphael, [/color]
with all due respect, I'll believe that Philomena being raised in succession by the Church [i]then[/i] is appropo [i]now.[/i]


[color=purple]PedroX![/color]
Thanks pal.


[color=green]Zachary,[/color]
I like my explanation better. I believe the Church somehow knows, for example, if St. Alphonsus went to heaven the day after he died.



[color=red]Bro Adam,[/color]
With all the assaults bombarding each of us, I hope you read [i]Pascendi[/i] if you get a chance. The last sainted Pope wanted us to know about the doctrine of the Modernists, and the remedies to squelch the attack.

[qfnol31]

Eh, I like St. Alphonsus' feast day on the day it is, it's my birthday!

[jasJis]

Bro Adam,
I understand your problem and pain and the danger that undermining the authority of the Church exposes many too. I've taught religion to teens for years and do not recommend PhatMass to them.

The Church is the Source, the Light, and the abode of the Holy Spirit on earth, and serves God to enable us to have an intimate relationship with His Son, our Lord, Jesus the Christ. I will follow the Church because it has lead me to Christ. Though I have doubts and worries sometimes, I know what I have found and know there is nowhere else for me to go.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote]Raphael,
with all due respect, I'll believe that Philomena being raised in succession by the Church then is appropo now.
[/quote]

I didn't even mention Philomena. I don't know what this is about. I was simply trying to state a historical fact of the Church relevant to the discussion.

[cmotherofpirl]

Phishy people are great for pushing Catholics out the door, becuase if they are Catholic, I don't want to be.

[Brother Adam]

Book suggestion: More Catholic Than the Pope: An Inside Look at Extreme Traditionalism by Patrick Madrid and Pete Vere JCL

[MichaelFilo]

All saints who were cannonized did exist. All saints who were paryed to did exist, for their intercession is known. It would be pointless to say that ANY of the saints who died didn't exist, because no one would pray to a saint who didn't interceed or help them. The fact of the matter is, just because the Church took them off the calander, it wasn't because of any lack of belief in their existance, but instead in the fact of lack of knowledge about them. It would be unsensable to hold a mass for St. X if all we know about St. X is that at some point people prayed to St. X, and some may still pray to St. X. I don't think you would give the title Saint to a non-Saint. It is a horrible claim to make to say that it is possible some saints didn't exist, for then oen maybe just as assured about the majority of the saints. You must understand there are MANY saints, and most have very little history to prove their existance, if any, outside the traditions passed down. So, it is better to say, all the saints who have gone from the calander existed but since very little is known about them (since tradition can be passed down and messed up) the Church removed them.

God bless,

Mikey

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Oct 1 2004, 06:14 PM'] Book suggestion: More Catholic Than the Pope: An Inside Look at Extreme Traditionalism by Patrick Madrid and Pete Vere JCL [/quote]
Interesting. I would have ordered that book had I known of it's existence. In a few days I will have my own copy of "What Went Wrong with Vatican II" and "No Salvation Outside the Church?".

[Donna]

Raphael, right, it was I who was talking about Philomena, because she was placed, in the 1960's, into the category of the...no-longer-quite-right (my inexact term).

But I answered you in part based on this:

[i]I did not mean to imply that all saints who were made so by legend are false saints, but that, with some such saints, the Church has done retrospective study and determined that there was not sufficient evidence in the first place.[/i]

Now I realize that of Philomena it was said there wasn't enough proof, and so isn't in the category of those proclaimed saints "by legend" instead of formal canonical process.

But the effect - a saint being "demoted" - is the same, to a simple person like me.

With cures and shrines, churches and altars raised and dedicated, archconfraternities already having been raised by Popes (over time) and the cult of Philomena championed by other saints -including popes- Philomena's demotion seems worse than ridiculous, but a scandal.

IMO.

[qfnol31]

Well, something told to me by a convert Priest from the Eastern Orthodox. He said that obviously there is a Saint that we're praying to because our prayers work (this was in regards to Christopher). St. Christopher as we know him isn't really a Saint, but there is a Saint to whom our prayers are going for the intercession works as well. When we "demote a Saint" it's more taking them off the calendar and saying that the stories about them aren't necessarily true. It's not saying that we can't still have devotions to them.

[Pio Nono]

JMJU
10/2 - Guardian Angels

If any saint was removed from the calendar, it was not because their existence was called into question, but because the stories surrounding their lives could not be corroborated historically. "Christopher" is Greek for Christ-bearer, and oddly enough, the story is that he "bore Christ" across a river. Is there reason to think that this was all made up? Of course not; it's just that Holy Mother Church has decided that a public cult is no longer necessary.

My patron saint (Apollinarius of Ravenna) was just recently placed back onto the general calendar; St. Expedite and St. Cloud were all removed from the calendar as well. Holy Mother Church did this because she believed that a public cult to them no longer met the worldwide needs of the Church. Does that prevent a particular parish, diocese or nation from celebrating a feast in honor of these people? Not at all - even after his removal from the general calendar, St. Apollinarius' feast day remained huge in Ravenna.