Coeternalism

[Snarf]

I really hate to look like a spammer, but I would really like feedback on a philosophy I've been working on. Basically I took it upon myself to rectify the popular notion of free will with the scientific principles of determinism and reductionism while adhering as closely as possible to Catholic doctrine. In short, I believe that all souls are eternal (lacking both beginning and end), while the normal teaching is that they are created immortal within time. While this is a pretty minor amendment to doctrine, it has remarkable logical conclusions that I personally find most consistent with observed reality.

So, to learn more about this, please go to [color=red]spam[/color] I would greatly appreciate feedback and rebuttals, so I can make the philosophy as orthodox as possible.

Edited October 2, 2004 by cmotherofpirl

[Guest T-Bone]

[quote]while adhering as closely as possible to Catholic doctrine.[/quote]

The Catholic view of the soul, found in the Catachism, adheres as closely as possible to Catholic doctrine.

[J.R.D]

Yea what T-Bone said



I was goig to say that dude i just thought about that lol

[cmotherofpirl]

If you want to make it as close to catholic doctrine as possible, drop it and stick to Catholic Doctrine

Edited October 2, 2004 by cmotherofpirl

[Guest Aluigi]

our souls are created at a certain point, but will have no end, either in heaven or hell for all eternity. sorry dude, but God spelled it out pretty clear through His Holy Church.

[musturde]

Interesting philosophy but try to learn the churches view, perhaps you'll find that it makes more sense.

[drewmeister2]

[quote name='Snarf' date='Oct 1 2004, 10:55 PM'] In short, I believe that all souls are eternal (lacking both beginning and end), while the normal teaching is that they are created immortal within time. [/quote]
Well, Souls are created within time, and do have a beginning, but they have no end. Only God has no beginning and no end. But human souls do have a beginning, at the moment of conception. God bless!

[Laudate_Dominum]

The idea of the preexistence of souls was condemned about 1,500 years ago.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Oct 2 2004, 04:49 AM'] If you want to make it as close to catholic doctrine as possible, drop it and stick  to Catholic Doctrine [/quote]
I wholeheartedly agree with you on this Cmom.

[immaculata]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Oct 2 2004, 07:49 AM'] If you want to make it as close to catholic doctrine as possible, drop it and stick to Catholic Doctrine [/quote]
in other words..

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

:crash:

[Snarf]

I was already aware of the technical discrepancies between my idea and the Church, and had you looked at the website you would have observed that I quote the Catechism more than once in its formulation. That souls are eternal was an idea first posed by the Platonists, so Augustine contended with this thought at length, this I know. The point that I raise is that the orthodox position is perfectly cogent, but only without the a priori of modern science.

Science tells us inarguably, concretely, and objectively that the free will proclaimed by Boethius, Augustine, and Aquinas simply can not possibly exist. Even as a student of science, I have a profound and unflenching love of the Church, so it became my obligation and sacred duty to resolve such incongruity.

So, I would like scrutiny to show where the theory is faulting. That does not mean simply yell out "IT'S NOT WHAT THE CHURCH SAYS SO IT'S WRONG!!!" The Church has had good reason for the affirmations is has made through history, but that does not preclude the possibility that a revision is necessary for its continued perseverence. So, to spell it out, retort with logic, not just the obvious remark that my idea is new and unpopular.

This probably conjurs up feelings that I am guilty of presumptuousness and lack of faith in the power of Mother Church. This is not the case, as so far as my human limitations allow. My faith in the truth of the Church is anchored by an understanding of its logical skeleton, which I maintain is remarkable and flawless. I simply affirm that society has outgrown this logic, and so it must be revamped.

[cmotherofpirl]

It is more than technical discrepancy.

Souls are not floating around waiting for a body.
God creates them as He needs them.



"Science tells us inarguably, concretely, and objectively "

This is not something science does: science designs propositions and tests them, and formulates hypothosese as to how something works. It is never inarguable and definitely not always objective.

[cmotherofpirl]

You might want to read this:http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=20829&st=40 especially Apotheoun's replies.

Edited October 3, 2004 by cmotherofpirl

[Snarf]

I never suggested that souls "float around waiting for a body." Such an image is overly simplistic of time, as eternity and thus the soul is parallel to all of time, it's a static state of simplistic existence. To quote Aquinas' affirmations of De Consolatione Philosophiae, "Eternity is the simultaneously whole and complete possession of endless life." So, if souls are eternal, then they don't "wait" for bodies.

"It is never inarguable and definitely not always objective"

Well, the weight of experiments in psychology and quantum mechanics are astoundingly harmonious with the hypotheses of their respective theories. So, I see them as "inarguable" in that virtually all arguments against them have been exhausted. And the scientific method is by definition objective, though I wouldn't exstend that to all scientists and that was not my intent. What I see most often to this end are fundamentalists not believing in evolution who see any discussion of biology as a cold attack on God by rabid atheists.

I read the posts you recommended, and nothing really applied to what I have to say. Had you taken such courtesies with my input, you would have already realized that.

I understand why you would remove a URL posted by a hit-and-run spammer, but my continued presence here indicates that I had no such intents, and that I was genuinely interested in your input. With you removing the link, that prevents anyone from reading what I have to say and thus from making insightful rebuttals. So, what that amounts to is censorship and cowardice. I should expect better from such a message board.

So, if anyone is interested in the persuit of knowledge, send me an IM on AIM if the mods don't restore the link to coeternalism.com. If not, that's just admitting defeat, and we all lose.

[Guest Aluigi]

I don't understand how science can weigh in on the nature of souls... souls are immaterial and science cannot reach beyond the physical senses...

[Guest Aluigi]

1, i suggest this be moved to the debate table

2, snarf, can you explain to me why science demans a soul that is not created at some point in time? REVELATION says God creates souls at a point in time and then they go on forever. Souls are not bound by physical rules. We are embodied souls, and one day our bodies will be ressurected and glorified (something i guess science might be against as well if it werent for the fact that nothing's impossible with God) and we will live eternally in heaven (assuming that's where we are for eternity) Body and Soul perfectly united and glorified in the Beatific Vision... and science can say nothing for or against that. what does science say of Our Lord's Ressurection from the dead? is it not impossible according to science?

now, i'm not saying science and religion are inherently opposed. i am saying that science cannot explain away all the wonderful mysteries of Almighty God.

[Snarf]

The reason why science says souls are eternal comes by seeing Laplacian determinism (huge asterix with that talking about quantum aspects thereof) plus the refutation of the "ghost in the machine". With those two ideas, we see that every aspect of the passage of human history was the natural progression from the Big Bang. Therefore, whatever spiritual bodies designed the passage of human lives, they must have done so by arranging the nature of the Big Bang itself. Science says that time itself did not exist prior to the universe, WHICH IS IN ASTOUNDING ACCORDANCE WITH WHAT AUGUSTINE SAID. So, since the souls did not happen within the universe's time, they are eternal.

Some of you may see the similarities this bears to parallelism, and I talk about that in my thesis.

[Guest Aluigi]

how does the big bang proove souls existed before the big bang? God CREATES souls. we're not ghost filled machines, we're embodied souls.

souls are not and have never been subject to physical constraints. the human soul is intimately connected with its body, it becomes seperated in death but will be reunited at the end of time.

time began at the creation of the universe by God. God made time at that moment (if you can call that a moment, yeah i guess it'd be the first moment that ever happened) God makes souls within the framework of time which He created. you have provided no scientific evidence claiming souls cannot have a starting point.

Edited October 3, 2004 by Aluigi

[Snarf]

My scientific evidence is the body of psychological literature that demonstrates that the mind works under strictly reductionistic means. And I never said that souls exist before the big bang, since there was no "before" the big bang. The BB was a moment in time (the beginning), whereas souls are parallel to time in a static abiding existence.

"souls are not and have never been subject to physical constraints."

That's nice, but we know very well that thoughts and actions ARE subject to physical variables, so without revision morality and spirituality get tossed out the window. That's what I'm trying to avoid.

"God makes souls within the framework of time which He created. you have provided no scientific evidence claiming souls cannot have a starting point."

Firstly, one task of my theory was to elaborate on the metaphysics of how exactly God manages to "do" things while in the absence of time. It's a rather sticky issue that has never been resolved by conventional theologians. And it was never my goal to show scientific evidence for my theory, but rather to extrapolate theology indepenedently while sticking to the rules handed to us by science.

So, I will repeat myself that simply stating the orthodoxical position on these matters is not helpful or productive. Use LOGICAL ARGUMENT, my friends.

[Guest Aluigi]

i'm trying to use logical argument. sheesh, i didn't even mention orthodoxy or Church teaching there. i'm trying to grasp the reasons you assert science demands that souls don't have a starting point..

God works within time, simple fact of the matter. God is omnipotent, He can do as He pleases. God exists outside of time, He created Time and views it all at once for He exists in eternity with no begining or end. He created a framework of time in which He created all things. He thus created the universe and the earth inside this time which He created. God is not distant from time, God is involved in time for He so wills it.

God is eternal, but He CREATED time and works within it, He even CAME INTO it at one point and lived as a man in it.

[img]http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-9/837215/diagramatttempt.JPG[/img]

Okay, so the Three Persons of the Blessed Trinity are all co-eternal, they have no begining and no end. The Holy Spirit is the infinite love between the Father and the Son, the Father is God so the Father is Love and needs someone to love in all eternity, so the Son has existed for all eternity, He is God and needs someone to love so the Father has existed for all eternity, and the infinite love between them that can connect them at every single point forwards and backwards through this eternal imaginary timeline is thus eternal as well. time is created by Him (God) and has a begining and an end. Everything God has created, He has created within that line. He created certain things within that line to go on forever, thus they will break free of the constraints of time if they die in Christ and thus enter eternal life. yes, they enter into eternity, in the amazing mystery of God's power He admits from time those who were bound by time into an eternity which knows no time. Our souls were created within that timeline, that one with a begining and an end, but they break free through the power of the Incarnation and are admitted into eternal life by the tremendous mercy of God. Our souls do not now exist in eternity. this is a mystery of the faith, that though eternity knows no time, God makes it subject to time's constraints to relate it to the temporal creatures which He has created