vianney Posted October 2, 2004 Posted October 2, 2004 Well it is pretty self explanatory. What are your thoughts?
Apotheoun Posted October 2, 2004 Posted October 2, 2004 In the Eastern Rites we sing the prayers, verses, and responses of the Divine Liturgy itself.
Hananiah Posted October 2, 2004 Posted October 2, 2004 I believe Vianney is referring to Protestant-style rock and quasi-rock worship music. The answer is most definitely no. Chant all the way.
FiZzGiG Posted October 2, 2004 Posted October 2, 2004 Do you mean this kind of music during, say the Eucharist or during the responsorial psalm?? Because, Life Teen (which i know has been controversial around phatmass) plays the standard songs during these times ("Christ Has Died" "Lamb Of God", you know, those songs), but during the offertory or the opening they'll play some of the Protestant-style rock worship music. Actually, a lot of it is written by Catholic artists. But is that still wrong? Should I say something to the pastor or someone about it? Cuz, I thought the opening, offertory, and closing songs were sort of the choice of the priest or music director. I dunno, I'm just curious!
qfnol31 Posted October 2, 2004 Posted October 2, 2004 I would argue that it's improper to the Mass, but then again, I would argue that many songs we sing are improper to the Mass..
Apotheoun Posted October 2, 2004 Posted October 2, 2004 The use of secular and profane musical forms during the Divine Liturgy should be avoided.
FiZzGiG Posted October 2, 2004 Posted October 2, 2004 Hmm... well the music is not secular or profane. It's definitely praising God. And while some of it is probably used in Protestant churches, the message is still Christian. Also, many Catholic hymns are sung, just to maybe a different tune or using different instruments. Okay or not??
Apotheoun Posted October 2, 2004 Posted October 2, 2004 [quote name='FiZzGiG' date='Oct 2 2004, 02:10 PM'] Hmm... well the music is not secular or profane. It's definitely praising God. And while some of it is probably used in Protestant churches, the message is still Christian. Also, many Catholic hymns are sung, just to maybe a different tune or using different instruments. Okay or not?? [/quote] I'm not referring simply to the words, but to the musical forms, i.e., are they secular or profane modern compositions. The aesthetics of the liturgy must be properly understood. Rock music, and rap music, etc., are not fit forms of music for liturgical worship. God bless, Todd
azaelia Posted October 2, 2004 Posted October 2, 2004 What about the mass parts written by Catholics like Jesse Manibusan, Bob Rice, and Steve Angrisano?
FiZzGiG Posted October 2, 2004 Posted October 2, 2004 Do you have anything I can read about it? Any proof in the Catechism or Bible?? If I'm gonna tell people this or talk to someone about it, I'd need to cite some sources -- you know, back up material. Just curious! And thanks for helping!
Apotheoun Posted October 2, 2004 Posted October 2, 2004 [quote name='FiZzGiG' date='Oct 2 2004, 02:20 PM'] Do you have anything I can read about it? Any proof in the Catechism or Bible?? If I'm gonna tell people this or talk to someone about it, I'd need to cite some sources -- you know, back up material. Just curious! And thanks for helping! [/quote] From the GIRM: [quote name='Section 41']All other things being equal, Gregorian chant holds pride of place because it is proper to the Roman Liturgy. Other types of sacred music, in particular polyphony, are in no way excluded, provided that they correspond to the spirit of the liturgical action and that they foster the participation of all the faithful. Since faithful from different countries come together ever more frequently, it is fitting that they know how to sing together at least some parts of the Ordinary of the Mass in Latin, especially the Creed and the Lord's Prayer, set to the simpler melodies.[/quote] The burden of proof that a form of music is proper to the liturgy is not upon you, but upon those proposing its use. Thus, you should ask them for the pertinent documents that allow the use of the profane music they are promoting. The Divine Liturgy is not supposed to be turned into a form of entertainment; instead, it is a solemn and sacred act of worship, in which the once for all sacrifice of Christ upon the Cross is offered to the Father, through the Son, and in the power of the Holy Spirit. God bless, Todd
vianney Posted October 2, 2004 Author Posted October 2, 2004 I didnt know styles of music were seen as "profane" You know the organ was seen as "profane" at one time. Fr. Stan Fortuna makes a great point. He said that its not the genre of music that makes it profane it is the artists who are associated with the genre and abuse it that make that way. Fr Stan is a CFR who raps and is very good at it. His raps are Catholic and praise God. Would you say that this is profane. The GIRM has not yet specified which types of liturgical music is profane and which are not so this is to some degree based on opinions not the Church. For instance NET masses which is approved by the local ordinrary use Catholic "rock" "rap" and other sorts of music for their liturgy. With all this being said what do ppl have to say about the Church emphasizing chant as the official music of the Church. Shouldnt this be give precedent over "praise and worship" music??
Hananiah Posted October 3, 2004 Posted October 3, 2004 [u][b][url="http://grkat.nfo.sk/eng/music.html"]This[/url][/b][/u] is the kind of music that should be sung in church.
Apotheoun Posted October 3, 2004 Posted October 3, 2004 [quote name='vianney' date='Oct 2 2004, 03:54 PM'] I didnt know styles of music were seen as "profane" You know the organ was seen as "profane" at one time. Fr. Stan Fortuna makes a great point. He said that its not the genre of music that makes it profane it is the artists who are associated with the genre and abuse it that make that way. Fr Stan is a CFR who raps and is very good at it. His raps are Catholic and praise God. Would you say that this is profane. The GIRM has not yet specified which types of liturgical music is profane and which are not so this is to some degree based on opinions not the Church. For instance NET masses which is approved by the local ordinrary use Catholic "rock" "rap" and other sorts of music for their liturgy. With all this being said what do ppl have to say about the Church emphasizing chant as the official music of the Church. Shouldnt this be give precedent over "praise and worship" music?? [/quote] I'm Byzantine (Ruthenian) Catholic and we only use those chants and tones that are traditional for our rite. Modern musical forms are not used, nor are any musical instruments allowed, and thus the only instrument used is the human voice. The various directives issued by the Holy See on the proper musical forms to be used during the celebration of the Roman Rite Mass should be followed. The liturgy is not a "show" nor is it a private prayer of the priest or of any parish or diocese for that matter; instead, it is the prayer of the universal Church. The GIRM is not an exhaustive document on the rubrics of celebration, thus one must consult the other documents and the notitiae issued by the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments in order to know what is or is not permitted. God bless, Todd
vianney Posted October 3, 2004 Author Posted October 3, 2004 yah and i think one could possibly have some Catholic "praise and worship" music (all liturgical music is praise and worship just w/ diff genres and styles) and have it not be a show. The thing to remeber is that the sacrifice of Jesus and reciprical gift of Jesus in the Eucharist is the FOCUS. The mainpoint. As long as this is the central theme and the music is done tastelfully and appropriate I see nothing wrong with it and the GIRM doesnt say there is anything wrong with it either.
Norseman82 Posted October 3, 2004 Posted October 3, 2004 Aesthetically, I have no problem with contemporary music, but let's keep things in their proper perspective: let's not turn Mass into a non-denominational variety show free-for-all. Music should be done with taste and flow with the rest of the liturgy and it should be done without liturgical abuses.
qfnol31 Posted October 3, 2004 Posted October 3, 2004 The music should flow from the Liturgy. If it doesn't, it's not proper in the Mass. Most "praise and worship" and "Protestant" songs don't flow from the Mass. They must be universal, and many aren't. It's profane music if it doesn't follow these norms. The music of Liturgy is most properly Gregorian chants and polyphonic hymns for a good reason (one that is specifically implied in the GIRM). I have a hard time with rap and other music that we see sometimes now for a few reasons, one of them being that they aren't as good as Gregorian chants in a Liturgical setting. Oh well, maybe one day Gregorian chants will make a comeback.
vianney Posted October 3, 2004 Author Posted October 3, 2004 I see your point about protestant praise and worship songs not flowing from the litrugy and I dont think anyone is disputing your point. My point is that there are Catholic praise and worship songs that are very very fitting for certain parts of the mass and help the flow its just these songs arent your typical hymns or chant. The point is that if these type of songs are used according to the GIRM they would be appropriate.
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