Allowing Contraception?

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

Hmm... THis rubs me the wrong way. I would like to see Cardinal Ratzinger's take on this.

[Adam S]

While Im pro-life, i must support the idea of abortion from rape.

While if a woman gets pregnant when they dont want it usually thats her (and her partners) own stupid fault. A harsh line, but it needs to be taken.

But to ask a woman to have her rapists child is sick, im sorry. It would destroy most women and lead them to suicide. You would forever connect that child with the most horrific experience of your life.

While Im pro-life, if you support forcing rape victims to have their rapists child, then you do not live in the real world. I can understand all views, but not this one

[IcePrincessKRS]

PSPX, sounds like a plan. I'm interested to hear what they have to say about the matter (I assume you'll print the article and show it to them?).

Adam S., that way of thinking is completely opposite of what the Church teaches. Abortion under ANY circumstance is not morally permissable. That is why this whole topic has come up: is there a way to prevent conception when a woman has been raped that is morally permissable? Abortion--Murdering a human being in the womb--is NEVER EVER ok.

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='Adam S' date='Oct 8 2004, 04:13 PM'] While Im pro-life, i must support the idea of abortion from rape.

While if a woman gets pregnant when they dont want it usually thats her (and her partners) own stupid fault. A harsh line, but it needs to be taken.

But to ask a woman to have her rapists child is sick, im sorry. It would destroy most women and lead them to suicide. You would forever connect that child with the most horrific experience of your life.

While Im pro-life, if you support forcing rape victims to have their rapists child, then you do not live in the real world. I can understand all views, but not this one [/quote]
You are either not Catholic, or you are the product of a modern Catholic education. In any case, I will assume that your ignorance on this is not your fault.

Your argument is foolish. I personally know a girl who is the product of a rape. She and her mother are both very active in the pro-life movement and quite happy that the right decision was made.
Apart from any personal connection your argument is baseless. You have no principles to stand on. You might as well support abortion in every case, because in every case it is the murder of an innocent human being. The Child did nothing to be punished for the sins of his father. The mother is a victim and it is tragedy. However, we do not correct tragedy by causing another one. Apart from the emotional baggage of the rape, she would also carry the emotional baggage of murdering her child. You want to talk about being suicidal. There you go. The murder of an unborn child is NEVER justified. If she doesn't want the child, then give him up for adoption.

If you support the execution of the unborn for the sins of their fathers, then not only do you not live in the real world, but the world in which you live is a hopeless place indeed. The realest world of all is that world changed forever by the Incarnation. It is a world that Chirst can do amazing things with some pretty bad situations. It is the only world worth living in.

[Paladin D]

[quote name='Adam S' date='Oct 8 2004, 04:13 PM'] While Im pro-life, i must support the idea of abortion from rape.

While if a woman gets pregnant when they dont want it usually thats her (and her partners) own stupid fault. A harsh line, but it needs to be taken.

But to ask a woman to have her rapists child is sick, im sorry. It would destroy most women and lead them to suicide. You would forever connect that child with the most horrific experience of your life.

While Im pro-life, if you support forcing rape victims to have their rapists child, then you do not live in the real world. I can understand all views, but not this one [/quote]
Rape is a horrible and disgusting thing, why punish the child because of it?

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='thedude' date='Oct 8 2004, 04:07 PM'] Hmm... THis rubs me the wrong way. I would like to see Cardinal Ratzinger's take on this. [/quote]
The article or what I said? (Please don't report me to the Grand Inqusitor!!)

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

The article.

And isn't there a high percentage of women who enter therapy years after an abortion?

[Adam S]

Ok,

If those of you out there have sisters, imagine if she got pregnant due to some crazy fling she had. You'd be sympathetic, but say "Look, you have to bear the reponsibilities of your actions and have the child. You live with the consequences of your actions." And id agree with you.

Imagine if your sister was raped by a scumbag heroin addict. She is battered and bruised, and has all sorts of internal bleeding. Shes suffering severe trauma, and will have mental scars for the rest of her life. She wakes up everynight screaming from recalling that horrific event.

Then she finds out she is pregnant. Before you even imagine how shed feel (im not sure if any of us can unless it had happened to us - again God forbid) imagine how youd feel.

Something that monster had created, a part of that monsters body was inside your sister, would you yourself not want to get rid of it?? Then your sister says she wants to get rid of it. The thought of anything like that inside her makes her feel sick. She tells you that there is no way shed ever love the baby, as everytime shed look into its eyes, she see the rape all over again.

Then you tell her that she cant get rid of it, as its not allowed, its banned by church teaching. You tell her she has to go through the agony of pregnancy and birth, have her life completely altered (even more) with all her ambitions gone with it. I've asked 2 of my female friends close at hand (not that their opinions represent the female population, i dont do that UNLIKE some people on this board) and theyve assured me that they probably would be so traumatised (think about it rape + pregnancy + child birth + its rapists child) that they wouldnt make it to the birth.

Oh and popestpiusx, dont call me ignorant, as that just shows you cant have a logical debate without name calling and being patronising. I am a very staunch Catholic, and agree with every other issue in the church, including all the pro-life stuff, EXCEPT this! So dont start name calling, because it shows you up.

And please in response to this post (and im sure there will be many) dont hide behind some random church document. Lets talk about REAL LIFE, after all thats what Christ was all about. I hate abortion, i think its being belittled to same standard as an old fashion condom, but your high risk factor of the Mum killing herself and/or rejecting the baby (remember post-natal depression also) is about a million times higher than normal.

Before you sit and judge - remember what you are asking of people before you want to ban something

God Bless

Adam

[Guest Aluigi]

if it were my sister: i would not want to put her through the ADDED TRAUMA of having an abortion. look it up, it will only add to the pain she feels. Statistics show, that when the woman actually has the child (either puts it up for adoption or keeps it) it is better for the woman mentally. your argument is based on the assumption that abortion would help her.

from the point of conception: it is a baby. period. that life is sacred and cannot be killed for any means.

generally, women who end up having and keeping the child of the baby love the child anyway. the moment they look into those innocent little eyes, the connection of the baby and that horrible sin committed against them melts away. the speculation of your friends doesn't mean diddly squat, the reflections of people who have gone through that mean a whole lot more.

[IcePrincessKRS]

Absolutely nothing you have said is enough reason to justify the MURDER of and innocent child. Yes, rape is traumatic, but that doesn't make murder an option.

To be a staunch and orthodox Catholic you have to accept ALL of the Church's teachings. Including this one.

[Adam S]

I accept your argument that it may be more traumatic to have an abortion. It all depends on the circumstances, and in line with Catholic teaching, i understand that abortion is wrong, as i have said already.

However, in certain circumstances you can pull into account the double effect theory. Hence (and perhaps i drifted from my original point in previous posts) although you can say it is wrong, it can be (in certain circumstances) the lesser of two evils (death of mother + additional trauma to family) and you cannot BAN all abortion....even though if it was up to me id make it a lot harder in England (i dont know what the American laws are) than it currently is now - they really do give them out for fun over here!!

Hope you understand my point a bit clearer, i think i was a bit vague in my last post. Is wrong, abortion can be more traumatic but possibility of double effect means you cant ban rape abortions/contraceptives.

all IMHO

God Bless

Adam

[IcePrincessKRS]

Adam, abortion is intrinsically evil and therefore the Principal of Double Effect cannot be applied.

The only sort of circumstances in which PDE can be applied to the death of the child to "save" the mother is something like an ectopic pregnancy where the child is in the fallopian tube and the tube must be removed. The death of the child is an unintended secondary effect.

[Guest Aluigi]

you cannot apply double effect for direct abortion. if the mother's life is in danger, procedures can be done to correct the mother's problem. sometimes that results in the death of the baby, but that's basically a miscarriage death because no one directly killed the baby. DIRECT abortion is never ever necessary nor is it permitable.

to deliberately kill a baby in the womb can never be justified. everything possible must be done to save BOTH the mother and the baby, but in the VERY VERY RARE case, it comes down to having to have a procedure done which indirectly might cause the death of the baby.

double effect cannot apply.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

The child is the good God brings from an evil event. She could give the baby up for adoption if she chose not to keep it. There are no loopholes in God's law.

[qfnol31]

Double effect can't apply in abortion for one reason, it's a direct act on the child. Double effect really only takes place when you're not acting directly on the child's life. We talked about this idea in my Philosophy of Man class and will be doing it in my Moral Theology class in the next week or two.