death penalty, abortion, and unjust war

[flip]

let us pray to end all abortion in all cases, all death penalty in america, and all unjust war.



these are all sins that need to be non-existent in our country

[JP2Iloveyou]

Flip, very true indeed. Let's be clear though, just to protect agaist ambiguity, that the DP is not immoral in all cases, and not all wars are unjust, including the Iraq war.

[CatholicforChrist]

Let us pray for a return to the unity of the Church, an end to abuses of the liturgy, and a restoration of the fullness of the Church's Mass for All Times.

Let us pray also for the renewal of the Church's Tradition in understanding the use of the death penalty to "institute justice" (cf., Catechism of Trent) and the appropiate use thereof in this country and all countries of the world.

Oremus et pro perfidis Judaeis: ut Deus et Dominus noster auferat
velamen de cordibus eorum; ut et ipsi agnoscant Jesum Christum, Dominum
nostrum.
Omnipotens sempiterne Deus, qui etiam Judaicam perfidiam a tua
miscericordia non repellis: exaudi preces nostras, quas pro illius
populi obcaecatione deferimus; ut, agnita veritatis tuae luce, quae
Christus est, a suis tenebris eruantur. Per eumdem Dominum. Amen.

[popestpiusx]

Amen.

[Guest JeffCR07]

Let us also pray for a return to fidelity and trust in the Magisterium in all members of the laity. Let us pray to an end to all schism with the Church, both visible and within our hearts. Mary grant us a part in her perfect humility, for as she humbled herself before God, so we should humble ourselves before the Church, and our shepards here on earth.

[popestpiusx]

Amen.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='CatholicforChrist' date='Oct 18 2004, 07:12 PM'] Let us pray for a return to the unity of the Church, an end to abuses of the liturgy, and a restoration of the fullness of the Church's Mass for All Times.

Let us pray also for the renewal of the Church's Tradition in understanding the use of the death penalty to "institute justice" (cf., Catechism of Trent) and the appropiate use thereof in this country and all countries of the world.

Oremus et pro perfidis Judaeis: ut Deus et Dominus noster auferat
velamen de cordibus eorum; ut et ipsi agnoscant Jesum Christum, Dominum
nostrum.
Omnipotens sempiterne Deus, qui etiam Judaicam perfidiam a tua
miscericordia non repellis: exaudi preces nostras, quas pro illius
populi obcaecatione deferimus; ut, agnita veritatis tuae luce, quae
Christus est, a suis tenebris eruantur. Per eumdem Dominum. Amen. [/quote]
Can't pray for a return for a "Mass for all times" there is no such thing. No Mass is perfect or unchangable.

Lets pray for the Church as she is - full of flawed people struggling to be obedient.

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Oct 18 2004, 09:06 PM'] Can't pray for a return for a "Mass for all times" there is no such thing. No Mass is perfect or unchangable.

Lets pray for the Church as she is -  full of flawed people struggling to be obedient. [/quote]
We can pray for the return of said Mass. And we can say the Mass is perfect. Unless, of course, we want to deny that the Mass is the perfect offering, by Christ, acting in and through the priest, of Himself to the Father on our behalf.

No?

Edited October 19, 2004 by popestpiusx

[Guest JeffCR07]

While I agree that it is of course permissible for one to pray for an increase in the practice of saying the Tridentine Mass, and, of course, it is theologically accurate to say that ALL valid masses are "perfect" I believe that the underlying spirit of Cmom's post was that a great many who pray for the above things do so in a way of judgement over the shepards of the Church and as such incur great harm upon themselves. Better for us to pray, as I said before, for a return of fidelity and submission in the laity, for if that prayer is answered, there will be far fewer liturgical abuses, and the perfection of [i]whatever[/i] valid Liturgy is being said will be truly appreciated for precisely what it is.

- Your Brother In Christ, Jeff

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='popestpiusx' date='Oct 18 2004, 10:27 PM'] We can pray for the return of said Mass. And we can say the Mass is perfect. Unless, of course, we want to deny that the Mass is the perfect offering, by Christ, acting in and through the priest, of Himself to the Father on our behalf.

No? [/quote]
no.
The Mass is a discipline and can be altered to suit the needs of the Church, it is not in a Vatican freezer [Cardinal Arinze said that].If the Trid Mass was "perfect" it would not have been changed.

[url="http://users.pipeline.com.au/frits/novus_trad.htm"]http://users.pipeline.com.au/frits/novus_trad.htm[/url]

[Guest JeffCR07]

I believe we are mistaking terminologies here. when popestpiusx said that the mass was perfect (and as I backed him up, and will continue to do so) it was with the understanding that we were speaking of the theological perfection of the mass. That is, the Divine Litugry, [i]any[/i] valid Divine Liturgy, is the perfect Sacrifice of the Lamb. We were not saying that the specific disciplinary constructs of the mass were "perfect" or unchangable. That is, we were not asserting that Latin or old Slovak or Syrian or ancient Greek (depending on the Liturgy) is the "perfect" languange and therefore the mass cannot be changed from it, nor were we saying that other similar disciplinary aspects of the mass cannot change. This seems to be what your posts have been speaking to, Cmom, and so you must make that distinction.

- Your Brother In Christ, Jeff

[Socrates]

Death Penalty is not wrong in all cases, and cannot be put on same level as abortion. Catholic countries have always practiced the death penalty throughout the ages, and the Church has never condemned it. Even the current Pope says that the state has the right to apply the death penalty, but that there are not ggod reasons for it in present-day society. This is open to debate - as is the justness of the Iraq war. We should pray for an end to war and violence, though - just wanted to clarify things - (see my post in the "death penalty" discussion). Abortion and the just use of the death penalty are on different levels, and position on the death penalty can never be used as an excuse to vote for a pro-abortion political candidate.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='JeffCR07' date='Oct 18 2004, 11:02 PM'] I believe we are mistaking terminologies here. when popestpiusx said that the mass was perfect (and as I backed him up, and will continue to do so) it was with the understanding that we were speaking of the theological perfection of the mass. That is, the Divine Litugry, [i]any[/i] valid Divine Liturgy, is the perfect Sacrifice of the Lamb. We were not saying that the specific disciplinary constructs of the mass were "perfect" or unchangable. That is, we were not asserting that Latin or old Slovak or Syrian or ancient Greek (depending on the Liturgy) is the "perfect" languange and therefore the mass cannot be changed from it, nor were we saying that other similar disciplinary aspects of the mass cannot change. This seems to be what your posts have been speaking to, Cmom, and so you must make that distinction.

- Your Brother In Christ, Jeff [/quote]
I understand the two different positions Laud and that you and PPx are in agreement on the theological positions [so am I], but that is not what I was referring to.

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='JeffCR07' date='Oct 18 2004, 10:02 PM'] I believe we are mistaking terminologies here. when popestpiusx said that the mass was perfect (and as I backed him up, and will continue to do so) it was with the understanding that we were speaking of the theological perfection of the mass. [/quote]
I am referring to much more than the theological perfection of the Mass (I don't really know exactly what that means or how to distinguish it from a "non-theological perfectability). I am speaking of the efficacy of the Mass as infinitely meritorious.

From cmom:
[quote]If the Trid Mass was "perfect" it would not have been changed.
[/quote]

This is a tautology. And you have not yet defined any of your terms, which, as you can see, has caused confusion.

[popestpiusx]

Besides, it's off topic.

[White Knight]

[quote name='flip' date='Oct 18 2004, 02:47 PM'] let us pray to end all abortion in all cases, all death penalty in america, and all unjust war.



these are all sins that need to be non-existent in our country [/quote]
Dude, I agree with Abortion dude, it sould be put away, but the Death Penality is 100% needed. without it, you have over crowded prisions, full of imates who are killers, robbers, rapists, etc etc, and you spend so much money to keep them alive, and America Tax Dollars pay for that, and they live better than most innocent hobos, which is sad.

Do Away with Abortion Yes, Do Away with the [b]Death Penality, NO.[/b]

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='White Knight' date='Oct 19 2004, 02:09 AM']

Do Away with Abortion Yes, Do Away with the [b]Death Penality, NO.[/b] [/quote]
Amen.

[Guest JeffCR07]

[quote]I am referring to much more than the theological perfection of the Mass (I don't really know exactly what that means or how to distinguish it from a "non-theological perfectability). I am speaking of the efficacy of the Mass as infinitely meritorious.[/quote]

The efficacy of the mass would be included within the theological perfection of the mass. To say that the mass is perfect in a theological sense is to say that the approved mass contains no theological error, and that it is indeed the sacrifice of Christ.

[quote]This is a tautology. And you have not yet defined any of your terms, which, as you can see, has caused confusion.[/quote]

Also, not to be nitpicky, but the only definition of a tautology that I am aware of is a sentence in a logical set whose truth table contains no conditions of falsehood. That point aside however (for perhaps there could be another definition) you must remember that you have not really defined your terms either. You aluded to a broader meaning of "perfect" than simply the infinitly meritorious nature of Christ's Sacrifice, but did not clarify what you meant by this.

- Your Brother In Christ, Jeff

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='JeffCR07' date='Oct 19 2004, 09:58 AM'] The efficacy of the mass would be included within the theological perfection of the mass. To say that the mass is perfect in a theological sense is to say that the approved mass contains no theological error, and that it is indeed the sacrifice of Christ.





[/quote]
If it contains any essential theological error (by essential I am referring to that which is essentil to the Mass itself; i.e, that the Mass is a re-presentaion of the Sacrifice of Calvary) then the Mass would not be valid and therefore, not efficacious. I think we are saying the same thing here, if that is what is being referred to as theological perfection. This seems to me to be a given.

[quote]Also, not to be nitpicky, but the only definition of a tautology that I am aware of is a sentence in a logical set whose truth table contains no conditions of falsehood.[/quote]

A syllogism can be abbreviated into one sentance. It seems to me that the statement I was calling a tautology is exactly that. Let me unpack it.


cmom stated "If the Trid Mass was "perfect" it would not have been changed."

Syllogism:
No perfect Mass would be changed.
The Trid. Mass was changed.
Therefore,the Trid. Mass was not perfect.

It seems that the first sentance has not been established. It is merely asserted as true.

Second, given the definition of "perfect" that I am referring to, this seems to be erroneous. But perhaps we are equivocating.

[popestpiusx]

But again. this is off topic, so we should either start a different thread for this topic or finish the discussion via e-mail.