Sola Scriptura

[Paladin D]

I think it'd be best if we as a group visited a non-Catholic forum. To debate the whole sola scriptura issue.

[Anna]

Queen Flowery?

The tape?

A defense of Sola Scriptura...is there such a thing?

It appears not.....

Pax Christi. <><

[ICTHUS]

I think it'd be best if we as a group visited a non-Catholic forum.  To debate the whole sola scriptura issue.

YES.

www.christianguitar.org/forums

[ICTHUS]

First off, I'd like to point out a couple of Scriptures that supposedly prove Sola Scriptura.

Acts 17:10-12

In Berea

10As soon as it was night, the brothers sent Paul and Silas away to Berea. On arriving there, they went to the Jewish synagogue. 11Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. 12Many of the Jews believed, as did also a number of prominent Greek women and many Greek men.

Many Protestants exegete the highlighted passage to mean that Scripture Alone is our infallible rule of faith, since the first century Jews thought that the teaching of the apostles was to be judged against the Scriptures - hence, Scripture is an infallible rule of faith.

I have given the defence, in past, that these are 1st Century Jews we're talking about, so naturally they would look to the Scriptures if this man were preaching that the Messiah had come, as they would have wanted to know if Paul was "the real shabang".

However, the counter-argument I've recieved is that the Jews considered Scripture alone authoritative here, therefore Scripture Alone is authoritative elsewhere.

Next, we turn to 2 Tim 3:10-17

10You, however, know all about my teaching, my way of life, my purpose, faith, patience, love, endurance, 11persecutions, sufferings--what kinds of things happened to me in Antioch, Iconium and Lystra, the persecutions I endured. Yet the Lord rescued me from all of them. 12In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, 13while evil men and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

2 Tim 3:16 (Gk) "16Pasa graphe theopneustos kai opsielimos pros didaskalian, pros elegchon, pros epanorthosin, pros paideian ten en dikaiosune,17 ina artios ho tou Theou anthropos, pros pan ergon agathon exertismenos.

I draw your attention to the word "artios" in v. 16.

Artios, according to Strongs concordance, means

1) fitted

2) complete, perfect

a) having reference apparently to "special aptitude for given uses"

If the man of God, therefore, is complete (artios) or perfect by the Scriptures for EVERY ("pan", in Greek, can mean either "all" or "every") good work (ergon agathon), then Scripture is our infallible rule of faith - or so a Protestant would argue (and so I have heard our good buddy mustbenothing argue!)

Any thoughts?

[BLAZEr]

First of all, what Scriptures were the Bereans referring to? The New Testament? The Gospels? NO! They were looking at the Old Testament. The Jewish scriputres. If anything this just goes to show that the New Testament is a fulfillment of the Old.

Second

14But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Here again, St. Paul is referring to the Old Testametn Scriptures. However it is important to point out what I highlighted above. It seems that St. Paul is here referring to the Teaching authority of the Apostles and their assistants . . . those whom they "learned" it from.

[Aloysius]

hmm so the Scriptures are "infallible rule of faith"

what is included in "scriptures"?

so it perfectly completes man... but it can be transformed from one kind of document to another depending on interpretation. if someone interprets scripture one way, the scripture is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT than the same scripture if it is interpretted another way.

therefore, the Scripture is the infallible rule of faith when interpretted correctly

it completes the man of God when interpretted correctly

does this make sense? i'm sure someone else can provide a better explanation than I.

[Katholikos]

Since Protestants cannot show us the "inspired table of contents" for their "scriptures," their claim of Sola Scriptura is futile. They cannot demonstrate what Scripture is (the inspired Word of God), or what is Scripture (the "inspired" list from God telling us which writings belong in the Bible). The Bible, which is a collection of writings made at different times by different writers for different reasons, cannot authenticate itself. No book can. An inanimate object requires a human agency to speak for it. The Catholic Church wrote the NT and formed the Bible -- she alone can vouch for it.

St. Paul is writing only to an individual -- Timothy. Acts, written by St. Luke -- a history of the nascent Catholic Church -- speaks of the writings available to the Bereans. Acts also was written to an individual. In both cases, Sts. Paul and Luke were referring to their own Scriptures -- the Greek Septuagint -- which Protestants reject. Neither Tim nor Acts nor any other biblical passage refers to the entire collection of Scriptures as we know them -- the Bible collected, canonized, and formed by the nearly 400-year-old Catholic Church.

With St. Augustine, I affirm: "For my part, I should not believe the gospel except as moved by the authority of the Catholic Church." (Letter to Mani)

Ave Cor Mariae.

[Katholikos]

hmm so the Scriptures are "infallible rule of faith"

what is included in "scriptures"?

so it perfectly completes man... but it can be transformed from one kind of document to another depending on interpretation.  if  someone interprets scripture one way, the scripture is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT than the same scripture if it is interpretted another way.

therefore, the Scripture is the infallible rule of faith when interpretted correctly

it completes the man of God when interpretted correctly

does this make sense?  i'm sure someone else can provide a better explanation than I.

Right on, Al. You said it well.

A comment on your first point: "Bible" means an entirely different book to a Catholic and a Protestant. The Protestant believes that when Martin Luther said "those writings are not scripture" and desecrated the Bible, he was speaking for God -- although the books he discarded had been part of the Bible for 16 centuries.

A comment on your second point: The only valid interpretation is the one the sacred writers intended to convey. The only way to know what they intended to convey is to examine the teachings of the early Church, who was teaching what the Apostles taught while some of them were still living. The early Church was the Catholic Church, and one can examine the teachings that are taught today and learn that they are the same as the Apostles taught. John Henry Newman found that out through a careful study of history, wrote his masterpiece, "An Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine," and became a Catholic. (He was formerly an Anglican clergyman.)

And: The Church considered around 200 writings and chose 27 for the New Testament. Among the criteria for the canon was that the writings had to conform to the teaching of the Church! So those who interpret the scriptures any other way (which is every Protestant) are WRONG.

It is not Scripture Alone. There was no Bible as we know it until the beginning of the fifth century. Revelation is found in both Sacred Scripture and Sacred Apostolic Tradition. The Catholic Church wrote the New Testament, which contains part of what she learned from the Apostles. The whole truth and nothing but the truth is contained in the teachings of the Catholic Church, founded by Christ for the salvation of the world.

Ave Cor Mariae.