the protector Posted October 23, 2004 Posted October 23, 2004 This is what happens when man feels he has God-given dominon over the earth... [url="http://dieoff.org"]dieoff.org[/url] [url="http://wolfatthedoor.org.uk/"]Wolf at the Door[/url]
God Conquers Posted October 27, 2004 Posted October 27, 2004 I'm sure no one has enough time to thoroughly read the entirety of those sites, however, I think I get your post. From Websites Premise: We are running out (or will run out) of oil. Premise: We are an exponentially expanding population. Premise: We are dependent on oil. Premise: We are becoming (or are) overpopulated. From Post Premise: Christianity (or just religion in general) is to blame for attitudes towards the earth ------------------------------------------------------------ Conclusion: Anarchy shall ensue soon and it's Jesus' followers fault. You have probably recently read "Ismael" or some other such book. I have a problem with several of the premises, which render the conclusion unsustainable. Oil: there's lots of it. Many recent studies show a distict overexaggeration by the people who say oil is running out... maybe it'll be gone tomorrow. Prices are rising because of poitical questions and greed.... not lack of resources. More oil is being found every day, more is being made every day (the total biological matter found on earth did not suddenly decline 250 million years ago... things still died, and still get compressed into oil in subsequent years) Also, alternative energy is becoming popular and widespread, reducing our need for the black stuff. Next, overpopulation is a hoax. The earth can support way more humans. Plus, you can't avoid normal population curves forever, something will come along and get us liek it always does ( Black Death, World War, Aids etc. ). Condoms and Abortion will not solve our problem, and perhaps make it worse. Christianity cals for Stewardship. This means responsibility for the things God gave us. Use, not Abuse. Your conclusion (inferred by me) is therefore preposterous.
Winchester Posted October 27, 2004 Posted October 27, 2004 [quote]This is what happens when man feels he has God-given dominon over the earth[/quote] Luckily, Catholics only believe we have stewardship, so this "dominion" thing doesn't apply to us in the inferred negative connotation. But I'm sure you know that because you've talked to us here and not just people who jump to conclusions.
Socrates Posted October 27, 2004 Posted October 27, 2004 (edited) Didn't have time to look at the sites, but blaming Christianity for a (real or perceived) oil crisis seems rather ridiculous to say the least. Edited October 27, 2004 by Socrates
God Conquers Posted October 27, 2004 Posted October 27, 2004 I eagerly anticipate a rejoinder and/or clarification protector.
ironmonk Posted October 27, 2004 Posted October 27, 2004 (edited) [quote name='the protector' date='Oct 23 2004, 01:02 PM'] This is what happens when man feels he has God-given dominon over the earth... [url="http://dieoff.org"]dieoff.org[/url] [url="http://wolfatthedoor.org.uk/"]Wolf at the Door[/url] [/quote] Fuel cell technology will be widely used within ten years. The need for oil will greatly drop. They've got a fuel cell car that will go from 0 to 60 in about 3 seconds - and it's totally silent. Dodge has a hybrid feul cell/gas powered truck that the Army has invested in. Perpetual energy is very close compared to where we were just five years ago. Some very cool things... be sure to watch the Science Channel each week for "Discoveries this Week" or some title like that. No worries about the oil... Have faith in God, not what man can do... God will provide. Worry about oil [i]could [/i]very well be a sin... Read St. Matt. 6:25-34. Do not worry about anything. God Bless, ironmonk (edited - lots of typos today... no sleep do to "sun" burn... on my butt. Don't ask.) Edited October 27, 2004 by ironmonk
God Conquers Posted October 27, 2004 Posted October 27, 2004 [quote name='ironmonk' date='Oct 27 2004, 02:56 PM'] (edited - lots of typos today... no sleep do to "sun" burn... on my butt. Don't ask.) [/quote] noooo problem.
cmotherofpirl Posted October 27, 2004 Posted October 27, 2004 [quote name='the protector' date='Oct 23 2004, 01:02 PM'] This is what happens when man feels he has God-given dominon over the earth... [url="http://dieoff.org"]dieoff.org[/url] [url="http://wolfatthedoor.org.uk/"]Wolf at the Door[/url] [/quote] False premises equal false conclusions
the protector Posted October 29, 2004 Author Posted October 29, 2004 (edited) [quote]Fuel cell technology will be widely used within ten years. The need for oil will greatly drop.[/quote] Fuel cells aren't energy. You have to extract hydrogen from water. Using what? Energy. You can't feed 6.4 billion and rising on fuel cells. You can't make plastics out of them either. [quote]Conclusion: Anarchy shall ensue soon and it's Jesus' followers fault. [/quote] No, it's not all your fault, but you are definately part of the problem. Maybe not so much today as you were in the past. [quote]Many recent studies show a distict overexaggeration by the people who say oil is running out... maybe it'll be gone tomorrow. [/quote] Oil production is peaking, not running ending. We approaching the end of cheap oil. After we hit the peak, oil will eventually become uneconomical. It will take more energy to extract oil than you will get from that which you extracted. [quote]Also, alternative energy is becoming popular and widespread, reducing our need for the black stuff. [/quote] Nothing beats fossil fuels. [quote]Next, overpopulation is a hoax. The earth can support way more humans. [/quote] A 45% increase in the next 50 years is not a hoax. World population is growing exponentially, especially in the third world. [quote]Plus, you can't avoid normal population curves forever, something will come along and get us liek it always does ( Black Death, World War, Aids etc. ). [/quote] Disease,war and famine are usually the results of overpopulation and a decrease in resources, such as oil. Why else would we be in the mid-east then? [quote]No worries about the oil... Have faith in God, not what man can do... God will provide. Worry about oil could very well be a sin... Read St. Matt. 6:25-34.[/quote] False faith is dangerous, whether it be in a ficticious god or technology. Both have gotten us into this mess, neither will get us out. Edited October 29, 2004 by the protector
Guest Aluigi Posted October 29, 2004 Posted October 29, 2004 The UN itself admits that the majority of industrialized nations are falling well below the replacement rate for births. Combine that with the fact that we're living longer, the population pyramid is skewed upside down. less and less people being born, while more and more old people keep on living. The result could be catastrophic, and the large number of old will not be able to be sustained by the small number of young. and it's all the fault off the population control coersion tactics of the United Nations. [url="http://www.un.org/esa/population/publications/worldageing19502050/pdf/8chapteri.pdf"]SEE IT STRAIT FROM THE HORSE'S MOUTH[/url] The UN has screwed the planet over in population control. we now produce more food on less land than ever before do to farming technologies and the planet can sustain comfortably billions of more people, i'd even say trillions, quatrillions maybe! ever been in a plane and looked down? the majority of the planet is empty. room is not a problem. the biggest problem today is distribution of wealth and food, that poor children in 3rd world countries under oppressive regimes can't get food because even when it is sent to them from the more fortunate countries the greedy leaders don't let em get it. alternative energy shows promise. the top scientific minds in the world are developing some pretty amazing stuff. you're way too pessimistic, mankind can overcome the measly obstacle of oil prices. in conclusion: have more babies to avoid the dangerous underpopulation of the planet, help hungry people in the third world get food by contributing to charities (the biggest helper of the poor worldwide is the Catholic Church, perhaps consider donating to her), and support the scientists who are working to fix the feul problem. optimism is not opposed to realism. case in point: it is realistic to say that with all scientific advances being made into alternative energy that we could very well loose our dependence on oil. that is also optimistic. Pax
the protector Posted October 30, 2004 Author Posted October 30, 2004 Talk to these people. My ability to explain this is rather limited. They will answer all your questions. Register and join in on the discussion. We love to hear opposing opinions. [url="http://peakoil.com"]peakoil.com[/url] Tell them jrob8503 sent you.
Guest Aluigi Posted October 30, 2004 Posted October 30, 2004 I'm busy with school work, writing a novel, doing a senior project, reading, piano, and finally PhatMass. I've already spread myself too thin, though I assure you I would love to go in and challenge their doom and gloom premise. Invite them over here if you want me to talk to them, I don't have the time to go into a whole new forum and blaze up every topic for the false presumptions they make. just look at the UN page with all its charts and everything: we have below replacement fertility. while life expectency has been keeping our population at status quo with an increase (the level of increase diminishing yearly) in population, eventually the older people will die out. It is estimated that by 2050 the world population will be nearly cut in half.
cmotherofpirl Posted October 30, 2004 Posted October 30, 2004 [quote name='the protector' date='Oct 30 2004, 01:50 AM'] Talk to these people. My ability to explain this is rather limited. They will answer all your questions. Register and join in on the discussion. We love to hear opposing opinions. [url="http://peakoil.com"]peakoil.com[/url] Tell them jrob8503 sent you. [/quote] Your population information is false. We already have the food to feed people now. Its simply not getting to the people because of malice, ineptitude, and poor planning. Even the UN admits how wrong it was.
Didacus Posted July 25, 2005 Posted July 25, 2005 [quote name='the protector' date='Oct 29 2004, 04:14 PM'][snip] False faith is dangerous, whether it be in a ficticious god or technology. Both have gotten us into this mess, neither will get us out. [right][snapback]400701[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Tell me, what is a guy/girl like you with an athiest attitude doing in a discussion group like this? Been to that site, joined in the coversations a bit... Found it to be not-to-my-liking because too many anti-christian attitudes and liberal BS. It has some interesting and pertinent information on the technical side, but once that is read, it just gets ridiculous.
Didacus Posted July 25, 2005 Posted July 25, 2005 [quote name='ironmonk' date='Oct 27 2004, 02:56 PM']Fuel cell technology will be widely used within ten years. The need for oil will greatly drop. They've got a fuel cell car that will go from 0 to 60 in about 3 seconds - and it's totally silent. Dodge has a hybrid feul cell/gas powered truck that the Army has invested in. [/quote] Fuel cells are energy carriers and not sources. If you are looking for an energy source to replace oil, you are looking at the wrong place. [quote name='ironmonk' date='Oct 27 2004, 02:56 PM']Perpetual energy is very close compared to where we were just five years ago. Some very cool things... be sure to watch the Science Channel each week for "Discoveries this Week" or some title like that. [/quote] Perpetual energy is impossible. You would need to defy the laws of thermodynamics - which would require a perpetual miracle. No invention can 'create' energy. You need to find a new source of energy to replace oil. [quote name='ironmonk' date='Oct 27 2004, 02:56 PM'] No worries about the oil... Have faith in God, not what man can do... God will provide. Worry about oil [i]could [/i]very well be a sin... Read St. Matt. 6:25-34. Do not worry about anything. [/quote] God helps those who help themselves. If a train is coming and you are standing on the tracks - would you worry about the pending collision? If you didn't, you might just stay on the tracks... [quote name='ironmonk' date='Oct 27 2004, 02:56 PM'] God Bless, ironmonk (edited - lots of typos today... no sleep do to "sun" burn... on my butt. Don't ask.) [right][snapback]397883[/snapback][/right] [/quote] God bless you too IronMonk...
Didacus Posted July 25, 2005 Posted July 25, 2005 [quote name='Socrates' date='Oct 27 2004, 12:40 PM']Didn't have time to look at the sites, but blaming Christianity for a (real or perceived) oil crisis seems rather ridiculous to say the least. [right][snapback]397720[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I fullheartidly agree. If anything is to blame for problems such as cited by peakoilist, it is the culture of consumerism and liberals culture of death - the culture of death centers around self-servitude and hence encourage consumerism. If catholic, even Christian teachings where obeyed, the problems facing us today would be far less in severity AND humanity would have a certain common view towards sincerely solving the problems.
Didacus Posted July 25, 2005 Posted July 25, 2005 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Oct 30 2004, 12:38 PM']Your population information is false. We already have the food to feed people now. Its simply not getting to the people because of malice, ineptitude, and poor planning. Even the UN admits how wrong it was. [right][snapback]401217[/snapback][/right] [/quote] You are absolutely correct. However, you need to consider some other facts into your equation: -machinery helps produce the bulk of the food we consume, and deliver it. Without oil specifically, the industrial complex cannot function. -Oil specifically is the greatest source of fertilizer in the world - Natural gas being the second. Without it, food production will drop just as dramatically as it rose in the alst 100 years. -without fertilizer and machinery, it is (I belive) possible to produce ample food for the world population, however, the demography of the world will ressemble that of the 19th century, when the vast majority of population in the industriallized nations where famers. Something most will be unwilling to revert to - at least not peacefully.
Aloysius Posted July 25, 2005 Posted July 25, 2005 There is a large supply of a specific type of rocks that can actually be processed to create oil, it's just not cost-effective so they don't do it. So if we run out of oil I'm sure people will focus on that. Also, the half life of fossil fuels was recently found to have been grossly overestimated in the original calculations and can be only hundreds of years. Some oil fields are actually starting to replenish themselves! exciting news.
argent_paladin Posted July 25, 2005 Posted July 25, 2005 What you don't account for is technological progress. Every year, oil companies become more and more efficient in every aspect of their business, from searching for new reserves, to pumping, refining, etc. And as the price of oil goes up, so does incentive to find new better techniques to squeeze the most oil out of a well. Similarly, agricultural techniques are constantly improving. Even as the world population increases exponentially, the number of hungry in the world keeps going down. And check out this graph: [img]http://www.census.gov/ipc/www/img/worldgr.gif[/img] in just over 40 years, the population growth rate has fallen by half, from over two percent in 1968 to about 1 percent today. It will be cut in half again in another 40 years. And here's another graph: [img]http://www.census.gov/ipc/www/img/worldpch.gif[/img] This shows that there are fewer and fewer people being added to the world population every year. It will fall by more than half from its peak in 1987. You are right that if all things stay the same, we will run out of oil in 30 years or less. But things aren't going to be the same. New oil fields will be found, new technologies will allow us to pump more oil, use our energy more efficiently and harness other forms of energy. Of course, one great solution is to start building a lot more nuclear power plants, since it is a clean, safe, efficient form of energy.
Didacus Posted July 25, 2005 Posted July 25, 2005 [quote name='Aloysius' date='Jul 25 2005, 12:48 PM']There is a large supply of a specific type of rocks that can actually be processed to create oil, it's just not cost-effective so they don't do it. So if we run out of oil I'm sure people will focus on that. Also, the half life of fossil fuels was recently found to have been grossly overestimated in the original calculations and can be only hundreds of years. Some oil fields are actually starting to replenish themselves! exciting news. [right][snapback]658318[/snapback][/right] [/quote] You a refering to shale oil which is extremely difficult to process - equally as difficult as the tar sands of Alberta. The reserves locked in shale oil are quite impressive - but the cost of oil once we get there will more than double. This will be very strenuous on the world economy - as the price of oil rises, the price of everything follows suit, such that just about everything will be double the price it is now. I looked into many of the theories on half-life of oil, the most promissing one is the 'adaibatic theory' which does not hold any grounds of reason really. But if you want to look at it from that perspective then the question becomes a comparaison between the rate we consume oil with the rate oil is replaced. Any way you make that comparaison the world consumes huge quantities more than is replaced.
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