Circumcision, Act 15, and Sola Scriptura

[thessalonian]

Well Brian let's go through what we have accomplished:

First of all the term sola scriptura is not my term but one of the three terms the reformation, upon which your beliefs are based choose for it's belief. Luther even said that SS, SG, and SF were the three doctrines upon which the reformation stands or falls. So that is why I use it. It is interesting that you are backing away from defending it.

Step in if you disagree.

1) Scriptures are authoritative. ON that we agree.
2) The early church was not operating on Bible alone.
3) The Apostles and the early church were not teaching Bible alone. They could not have been because they were operating under Bible + Apostle + what was heard from an Apostle
4) Acts 17 and the Bereans and 1 Tim 3:16 do not teach Bible alone and so have been misused and abused by Protestants for years to defend it.
5) 2 Thes 2:15 does in fact speak of doctrines being passed on by WORD OF MOUTH.
6) The Bible does not teach Bible alone. If it did the Apostles would have been violating "practice what you preach".
7) You say Bible alone is a logical conclusion.
8) I say if it is a logical coclusion but the Bible does not teach it then it is a doctrine external to the Bible being used to say that the Bible alone contains the truths that God has meant for our hearing. In which case it refutes itself.

How am I doing.



Thess

Edited November 11, 2004 by thessalonian

[Briguy]

Hi Thess. You meant 2 Tim. 3:16, but i forgive you. Here is that scripture with some context, before and after.

2 Tim 3: (KJV)

14] But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
[15] And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
[17] That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2Tim.4
[1] I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
[2] Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
[3] For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
[4] And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
[5] But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

You are right in that from a human perspective the Holy Scriptures mentioned had to be old testement writings, Ah, but there is a problem, there was no formal OT either at that time. The books that comprised the OT were all around in seperate form, just like the letters God was writing through Paul and a few choice others. It is not like there was a black leather book with OT written on it that Paul was referring to. Paul was referring to things that were written by God through men, and for mankind. He says that the ALL Scripture is given for a reason and then lists the reason. The ALL here could easiliy incorporate the current revelatory writings that were happinging. Lets face it Paul wrote this and was the one who even said his writings were from God. At one point he wrote that what he was about to say was his own thought and not God's, implying the rest of what he said was directly from God. He makes a statement in 1 Cor. 14 which is like that when discussing women speaking in assemblies. Paul spoke of mysteries that were made known to him. It would be a giant stretch to think Paul would not have counted his own writings as Scripture because he KNEW that his writings were as much from God as anything else around. And again scripture at that time was in scroll form and the books were seperate. Perhaps the Books of Moses were copied together. At any rate 2 Tim. 3:16 by simple logic can mean the Bible as we know it. It may have incorporated other writings as well that did not make it into what we have now. The early men of God that decided on what books to keep in the Bible I am sure spent many days in prayer and in searching to make their decisions. The Bible I read is complete and able to do what Paul said in 2 Tim. 3:16.

I think I agree with everything else you said above.

In Christ,
Brian

[Brother Adam]

Well...any way you look at it, even if the 2 tim 3 means the whole canonical Bible, you still have a conundrum of a problem- the Bible never says its sufficient as a sole rule of faith. Never implies it typologically, exegesically, or in any other way. Scripture alone itself is a contradiction.

And they did have compiled scriptures as you hinted at: the Torah. Jews still don't trust the Christian OT.

And yet your left with another problem: What to do with the canon of scripture when it was men who compiled it when you don't believe that these men, like the writing of the scriptures, had the power to make infallible decisions when you assert that the canon of scripture is correct and inerrant. Most especially when the canon used for the books of the Bible had (and still has) 10 more than you do after the Protestant Reformers tried to patch the Bible back together again after Luther finished tearing pages out (thankfully the succeeded in at least putting all of the New Testament books back in).

[Brother Adam]

Oh yeah - hi :wave:

[Buzzard]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Nov 12 2004, 01:34 AM']
Well...any way you look at it, even if the 2 tim 3 means the whole canonical Bible, you still have a conundrum of a problem- the Bible never says its sufficient as a sole rule of faith. [/quote]
.
.

~{Acts 20:29}~
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall
[b][color=red]grievous wolves[/color][/b]
enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise,
[b][color=red]speaking perverse things[/color][/b],
to draw away disciples after them.

31 Therefore watch, and remember,
that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one
night and day with tears.[list]----[b][u]Paul says Goodbye to Ephesus[/u][/b]----


[/list] 32 And now, brethren, I [b][color=red]commend[/color][/b] you
[b][color=green]to God[/color][/b],
and
[b][color=green]to the word[/color][/b] of his grace,
which
[b][color=green]is able[/color][/b] to build you up,
and
[b][color=red]to give you an inheritance[/color][/b] among all them which are sanctified.
[i]The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.[/i]
.

.
[quote][b][u]Commend[/u][/b]
1 : to entrust for care or preservation[/quote]

Paul commended / entrusted the Church to
[b][color=green]to God[/color][/b],
and
[b][color=green] to the word[/color][/b][list]"------------------ the holy scriptures,
[b][u][color=red]which are able[/color][/u][/b]
to make [b][color=green]thee wise[/color][/b] unto salvation
through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
[i]The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.[/i]
[/list]as The Wise Man saith
~{Ecc.12:11}~
The words of the wise are as goads,
and as nails fastened [b][color=red]by the masters[/color][/b] of assemblies,
which are given from [b][color=red]one shepherd[/color][/b].


Now the reason for the Written Word

~{Luke 1:3}~
1 Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things
which are [b][color=red]most surely believed[/color][/b] among us,
2 Even as [b][color=red]they[/color][/b] delivered them unto us,
---{[i]Thats the Apostles[/i]}--
which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;
3 It seemed good to me also,
[b][color=green]having had perfect understanding of all things[/color][/b] from the very first
[b][color=red]to write[/color][/b] unto thee in order,
most excellent Theophilus,
4 That thou [b][color=red]mightest know the certainty[/color][/b] of those things,
----{All them Oral Teachings and Traditions}--
wherein thou hast been instructed.
.
.[list][b][color=green]having had perfect understanding of all things[/color][/b] from the very first
[/list][b][color=blue]Can you make that claim for the ECF's ???????[/color][/b]

No, you can't
Scripture is the only thing we can trust,
so that we as Luke Saith[list]4 That thou [b][color=red]mightest know the certainty[/color][/b] of those things,
----{[i]All them Oral Teachings and Traditions[/i]}---
wherein thou hast been instructed.
[/list]

Edited November 12, 2004 by Buzzard

[Brother Adam]

First of all son, don't begin to attack anyone trying to imply they are "grevious wolves". But as a lesson, In the first century this was the gnostics, not the Christians. You don't have the first clue as to how to use the Bible, nor how to argue. You can take a few lessons from your fellow non-Catholic Briguy. He is among the most charitable non-Catholics I have met and is an example to you.

Second lesson, you can start by doing a word study on Logos and Tradition. Then you might have the fanciest clue on how to start looking at the Holy Scriptures, because as of now, as you have taken them out of context, you have mocked the scriptures.

[thessalonian]

"Ah, but there is a problem, there was no formal OT either at that time. The books that comprised the OT were all around in seperate form, just like the letters God was writing through Paul and a few choice others. It is not like there was a black leather book with OT written on it that Paul was referring to. Paul was referring to things that were written by God through men, and for mankind. He says that the ALL Scripture is given for a reason a

Brian,

Excellent debate by the way. Kudos. Thanks for the correction, sorry for my laziness in not looking it up. I always get confused by where that verse and the one that says the CHURCH is the pillar and support of the truth is. . I look at your above post and I have to ask myself which side you are arguing. Some day perhaps I will find someone who does not believe that what Paul wrote was scripture and I will use it myself. I have never said Pauls writings were not scripture but that is what you are arguing (though I do think that even when he says "this is my opinion" it is still scripture and thus is true and to be followed. Like women preachers. The problem is not thw written things which your post focuses on. The problem is that for 20-30 years there was no New Testament scriptures and they were not completed until 50-60 years after Pentecost. So the question is, first of all, were the people recieving the word of God from the Apostles? The answer is of course simple. "He who hears you hears me". They were. So what was spoken orally was the WORD OF GOD. Now you can look at ever verse that says WOG and every verse that says SCRIPTURE and I don't know how you can prove that they are equal. Once again I am not saying that scripture is not the WOG. Your arguement almost seems to be that it was not the WOG until it was written down. I hope that is not the case.

Now in order for your timothy verse to be saying bible alone, this Oral transmission of the WOG which was no less the WOG than the Old Testament, I think we can agree, would have had to have been immediately written down the second they thunk it. But we of course know that did not happen. Only much latter did they write it down. You can say, well the words of the Apostles were always the WOG. But that does not help you because not everyone carried around a pocket apostle and most definitely according to 2 Tim 2:2 there was an oral transmissoin of what the apostles said with the faithful witness of the members of the Church. Was it only an apostle who could convert someone using new testament concepts and pass them on to others? I don't think you would agree with that. Also that Mark and Luke were not apostles shows that it was not only Apostles that had and transmitted the Word of God. Now you can claim that at some point it was all written down. I don't agree of course but this does nothing for Bible alone because as I said over and over in this thread, the Church could not have been teaching BA until John dropped dead in Ephuses and at that point there was noone who could capture it in scripture according to your theories.

As for the Bible being in scrolls, and all, I don't see how that helps you. It only says that Bibles were not readily available and so Oral Teaching was even more important. Most certainly the far reaches of gentile land that Paul traveled did not have them. He definitely did not sit around for a year making 2 copies and pass them out to the first people he saw and said, "sorry out of Bibles folks you can't practice Bible Alone in your own home". No this SS concept is a creation of modern post printing press man. It feeds the pride of men who want to do it for themselves and not depend on anyone or submit to an authority called the Church. That is the roots of this. My son just said last week "can't I have my own schedule and do cleaning when I want and have more time to go out and play". He got rather angry over this of course. But God put instituions like the government (Romans 13), and families, and Churches (which are the pillar and support of the truth) to be obeyed. For ages and still today most people people could not read. Once again only doing damage to the SS theory. It was just not the mechanism that God left to pass on his saving truths to all mankind. Yes the Bible is a big part of it and is for correction, reproof etc. I have been using it liberally in my years as a Catholic apologists. In fact I dare say without bragging that I use it more than 99% of the Protestants I debate. But the correct understanding of the meaning in the context of the Church which is the pillar and support of the truth is in fact equally important to understanding it as the words themselves. This is plain from the thousands, if not tens of thousands of Churches who claim it is their sole rule of faith and yet are widely divided.

Sorry for the long windedness. Thanks for stepping in Brother Adam. Yes, Brian is doing a fine job and is a fine example of a great Protestant Apologist.

God bless all

[ironmonk]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Nov 12 2004, 08:49 AM'] First of all son, don't begin to attack anyone trying to imply they are "grevious wolves". But as a lesson, In the first century this was the gnostics, not the Christians. You don't have the first clue as to how to use the Bible, nor how to argue. You can take a few lessons from your fellow non-Catholic Briguy. He is among the most charitable non-Catholics I have met and is an example to you.

Second lesson, you can start by doing a word study on Logos and Tradition. Then you might have the fanciest clue on how to start looking at the Holy Scriptures, because as of now, as you have taken them out of context, you have mocked the scriptures. [/quote]
Why bro adam...

Now you understand where I come from sometimes...


God Bless!
ironmonk

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Nov 12 2004, 10:57 AM'] Why bro adam...

Now you understand where I come from sometimes...


God Bless!
ironmonk [/quote]
Humbug!

[Buzzard]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Nov 12 2004, 06:49 AM'] First of all son, don't begin to attack anyone trying to imply they are "grevious wolves". [color=red]But as a lesson, In the first century this was the gnostics, not the Christians.[/color] You don't have the first clue as to how to use the Bible, nor how to argue. You can take a few lessons from your fellow non-Catholic Briguy. He is among the most charitable non-Catholics I have met and is an example to you.

Second lesson, you can start by doing a word study on Logos and Tradition. Then you might have the fanciest clue on how to start looking at the Holy Scriptures, because as of now, as you have taken them out of context, you have mocked the scriptures. [/quote][list][color=red]But as a lesson, In the first century this was the gnostics, not the Christians.[/color]
[/list]They may or may not have been called "[i]gnostics[/i]" ,

but these men were [b]Part of the Church[/b][list]~{Acts 20:30}~
[font="Times"]30 Also [color=red]of your own selves[/color] shall men arise,
speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.[/font]
[/list]These men also were "[i]Part of the Church[/i]"[list]~{2Cor.11:13}~
[font="Times"]13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers,
transforming themselves [b][color=red]into the apostles of Christ[/color][/b].
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if [color=red]his ministers also[/color] be transformed
as the ministers of righteousness;[/font]
[/list]Now like it or not,
there were a whole bunch of men in the 1st Day Church,
Claiming "[i]Apostolic Authority[/i]" that John said were Liars


Also;
there were some that were [b]"Students of the Apostles themselves[/b]"
taught personally by them, but Apostized
These were [b][color=red]Anti-Christ[/color][/b] according to John[list]~{1John 2:19}~
[font="Times"]"------------------------------ even now are there many antichrists;

19 [b][color=red]They[/color][/b] went out from us, but they were not of us;
for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us:
but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

----------------------

26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.[/font]
[/list]They might have been called by many names,
but they were still in the church teaching; Damnable Heresies,
that the Many of the 1st Day Church accepted as Apostolic truth

Thats the reason he gave us the written word[list]~{Luke 1:3}~
[font="Times"] [b][color=red]to write[/color][/b] unto thee in order,,,,,,,,
4 That thou mightest [b][color=green]know the certainty[/color][/b] of those things,
wherein thou hast been instructed.[/font]
[/list]

Edited November 12, 2004 by Buzzard

[Brother Adam]

I'm not even going to attempt to take the time to argue someone who can't at least try to take the Bible in context. Here, you want to verse sling? Have fun:

From Flyfree Ministries, my organization:

The Bible itself states that the Church is the "Pillar and Foundation of Truth".

John 20:30 (ESV)
Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book;

2 Thes. 3:6
Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.

1 Cor. 11:2
Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.

Ephes. 3:10
To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

2 Peter 1:20
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.


The Pope is the visible head:

Matthew 18:18 (ESV)
Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Matthew 16:18 (ESV)
And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Matthew 16:19 (ESV)
I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

John 21:15-19
So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs. [16] He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep. [17] He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep. [18] Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not. [19] This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The office of the Apostle in the Bible has gradually formed into the office of the Bishop in the Church. The Apostles went about to many different churches in biblical times and taught and had teaching authority over these churches.

Galatians 1:8-9 (ESV)
But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. [9] As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.

Romans 11:13 (ESV)
Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry .

1 Cor. 15:9 (ESV)
For I am the least of the apostles, unworthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

2 Cor. 12:12 (ESV)
The signs of a true apostle were performed among you with utmost patience, with signs and wonders and mighty works.

1 Tim. 2:7 (ESV)
For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle ( I am telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.

2 Tim. 1:1 (ESV)
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God according to the promise of the life that is in Christ Jesus,

2 Tim. 1:11 (ESV)
for which I was appointed a preacher and apostle and teacher,

2 Peter 1:1 (ESV)
Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

They were given many powers:

Mark 6:7 (KJV)
And he called unto him the twelve, and began to send them forth by two and two; and gave them power over unclean spirits;

Mark 16:17 (KJV)
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

Luke 9:1-2 (KJV)
Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases. [2] And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick. .

Acts 2:4 (KJV)
And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Acts 2:43 (KJV)
And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.

Acts 5:12-16 (KJV)
And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch. [13] And of the rest durst no man join himself to them: but the people magnified them. [14] And believers were the more added to the Lord, multitudes both of men and women.) [15] Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and couches, that at the least the shadow of Peter passing by might overshadow some of them. [16] There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Overseers and Deacons

1 Tim. 3:1-2 (KJV)
This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. [2] A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

Titus 1:7 (KJV)
For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;

1 Tim. 3:8-13 (KJV)
Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre; [9] Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience. [10] And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless. [11] Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things. [12] Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. [13] For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus

[Buzzard]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Nov 12 2004, 03:58 PM']



The Bible itself states that the Church is the "Pillar and Foundation of Truth".

[/quote]
That it is
But it [b]is not[/b] the Architect,
and therein lies the differance

Edited November 13, 2004 by Buzzard

[Brother Adam]

It is the Foundation of Truth, with Christ as it's head. The Catholic Church is the only true Church. All others are denominations governed by the will of people and not the will of Christ.

The szichophrenia caused by people who have placed their intellect above God's through the Reformation and beyond has caused serious damage to the body of Christ. We have "Bible Alone" (read "My own personal interpretation alone) folks who now deny the divinity of Christ by their "Bible alone" standards.

[Buzzard]

Thats true, and [b][color=red]it will get worse[/color][/b] as time goes on,
But that is not the Fault of the Scriptures;

Thats just as Peter saith[list][font="Times"]things hard to be understood,
which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest,
as they do also the other scriptures,[/font]
[/list]Just another reason he left us with the written word
as a testimony to what is Truth[list]~{Proverbs 22:20}~
[font="Times"]Have not I written to thee excellent things in counsels and knowledge,
21 That I might make thee know the certainty of the words of truth;
that thou mightest answer the words of truth to them that send unto thee?[/font]
[/list]otherwise we would be at the mercy of those
Claiming Apostolic Teaching Authority
that would prevert the Gospel,
it is unfortunate that the Many of the Church would follow after their pernicious ways
[font="Times"][i]And many shall follow their pernicious ways[/i][/font]

and the words of Christ
[font="Times"][i]for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction,
and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way,
which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.[/i]
[/font]
But then again as Paul says[list][font="Times"] Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.[/font]
and
[font="Times"]but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers,
having itching ears[/font]
[/list]so it is evident there needs to be a standard which we judge our teachers by
and that is a Luke saith[list][font="Times"]to write unto thee in order,
..................
4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things,
wherein thou hast been instructed.[/font]
[/list]It is the written word,
that we may know of a certainty that what we are taught is
truth or just someones opinion


[quote]~{Luke 6:39}~
[font="Times"]He also told them this parable:
"Can a blind man lead a blind man? Will they not both fall into a pit?
40 A student is not above his teacher,
but everyone who is fully trained will be like his teacher.[/font]
NIV
.
.[/quote]

Edited November 13, 2004 by Buzzard

[Archangel]

Which books of the bible did Jesus say are "a testimony to what is Truth"?

[Buzzard]

[quote name='Archangel' date='Nov 13 2004, 02:01 AM'] Which books of the bible did Jesus say are "a testimony to what is Truth"? [/quote]
[list]~{John 5:39}~
[font="Times"]Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life:
and they are they which testify of me.

45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father:
there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me;
for he wrote of me.
47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?[/font]
[/list]That many of the Jews did not beleive, does not make the Testimony there without effect[list]~{Romans 3:3}~
[font="Times"] For what if some did not believe?
shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?[/font]
[/list]and as he saith[list]~{Luke 16:31}~
[font="Times"] And he said unto him,
If they hear not Moses and the prophets,
neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.[/font]
[/list]

[Mary's Knight, La]

ok it has been admitted in the early church it was scripture + words of the apostles (spoken either by themselves or parroted through lectors/readers etc) + prophets, who was the last apostle? was it those who actually walked with Christ? then we cannot count Paul,

if instead you claim there was some other stopping point, where is this point and why is this the point past which we have no more apostles and prophets?

and if paul thought he was writing scriptures why do his scriptures rather than taking the traditional form found in the OT read more like memos from management

if the real need for the apostles past their writings was clarification then it would seem that if the people who can claim a direct line of teaching from the first apostles are wrong then nobody has any hope of being right. assuming nobody has the truth the apostles thought then any attempt to justify anything using the bible may be vulnerable to a misunderstanding of what the bible teaches.

[thessalonian]

Brian,

Do go back and read my last response. I have enjoyed our discussion immensly.

God bless

[Briguy]

MK, One huge thing we have going here and that gets forgotten about on the Catholic side of the argument is that the original Apostles had gifts that no longer exist today and that sets them apart. They healed ALL the sick brought to them, as Adam eluded to. They could raise the dead, speak in Tongues, etc... No Bishop or even the pope can do those things now. Please do not be confused in what I am saying. Miracles still happen but nit at the will of people, but only at the will of God. When the Apostles did a miracle, i.e healed hundreds of sick people, it was done by their own power, and it was their choice. God had given them a "gifts" of miracles and healing and they chose when touse them. As for prophets, that is another story but I think I will hold on that unless someone wants to know.

So, what I am saying is that the foundation laid by the Apostles and Prophets is unique because they were a special select few given special authority and gifts to give birth (and lay the building blocks) to the "body of Christ" which would grow and become worldwide. If the popes or other leader are Apostles by succession (sp?) they would have the gifts and powers of anApostle, but they do not.

Hi Thess. I will look back and respond to your last post, I just needed to get that last thought out first. I fear I just opened a new can of worms.

Adam, most of your post above is one scripture at a time and so there is always an issue with context. I have shown quite clearly that meanings for verses change in proper context. There was a couple spots where multiple verses were used and those verses would much better make your point. I don't consisder one verse arguments worth much weight anymore.

In Christ,
Brian

[thessalonian]

Brian,

One thing you are doing that you do not realize you are doing is that you are pulling your verses in to the context of your beliefs. Everybody does this. We as Catholics just acknowledge it.


We most definitely do recognize that what the Apostles had was special. That is why all of our tradition is expected to be able to be traced through 2000 years of Church history or it isn't worth a hoot. You would have difficulty showing this with Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, and pre-trib rapture to name a few. Oh and
Baptismal regeneration and Real Prescence clearly have historic as well as Biblical continuity. How about Mark and Luke special? What was special about them? (I have an answer).

God bless