TempleofVesarius Posted October 5, 2003 Posted October 5, 2003 ok...paraphrase here Jesus said, "You are my Rock, and upon this rock I will build my CHURCH" notice there is no "s" at the end of that word "church" there? So how can anyone claim that all churches are really the same? Doesnt that imply that Jesus has only ONE TRUE CHURCH?....and wouldnt it make sense that his ONE TRUE CHURCH is the one that still stands on the SAME ROCK??? just a thought there
Aloysius Posted October 5, 2003 Posted October 5, 2003 it's so solid an argument, but they always reject it.
Anna Posted October 5, 2003 Posted October 5, 2003 (edited) Well, somewhere down the line, someone came up with the bright idea to translate that phrase from the Greek. NOTE: that Jesus did not speak Greek! (He spoke Aramaic and Hebrew). In Greek, there is a bit of a problem, as "Petros"(masculine) means a small pebble. But "Petras" (feminine) means large rock formation. So, rather than quoting the Aramaic, where Simon BarJonah (Simon, son of Jonah) is given a new name Kepha (or Cephas) by Jesus, which means "Rock," these mistranslating scholars come up with a theory about Peter just being called a little pebble by Jesus, while the "Rock" to which He refers is, basically, their own personal ability to hone in on what God is telling them, or "Divine inspiration." So they believe that Christ was saying Upon Divine Inspiration, I will build My Church. However, anyone who starts his own church, claims that he (or she) was Divinely inspired, yet these churches all contradict each other!!! They might want to look here to see what some of the most revered protestant leaders and scholars have said about "Upon this rock, I will build My Church": http://www.catholicoutlook.com/rock2.html Edited October 5, 2003 by Anna
Freaky Chik Posted October 5, 2003 Posted October 5, 2003 I disagree and if I didn't have to catch the train soon I'd say why. Maybe some other time. :D
ICTHUS Posted October 5, 2003 Posted October 5, 2003 I disagree and if I didn't have to catch the train soon I'd say why. Maybe some other time. :D Yes, please do explain, FreakyChik Are you a Greek scholar?
willguy Posted October 5, 2003 Posted October 5, 2003 In Greek, there is a bit of a problem, as "Petros"(masculine) means a small pebble. But "Petras" (feminine) means large rock formation. So, rather than quoting the Aramaic, where Simon BarJonah (Simon, son of Jonah) is given a new name Kepha (or Cephas) by Jesus, which means "Rock," these mistranslating scholars come up with a theory about Peter just being called a little pebble by Jesus, while the "Rock" to which He refers is, basically, their own personal ability to hone in on what God is telling them, or "Divine inspiration." Actually, from what I've heard, the scholars did not mean to mistranslate rock into pebble. Basically, if they called Peter "Petra," everyone would go "Peter's got a girly name, Peter's got a girly name" and laugh and point. So, you make the work masculine. An interesting point in all of this is that there is only one person before Peter known to have borne the name Kepha, and no one before him was called Petros. So it wasn't like Jesus was calling him Tom. Jesus gave him a name that, in all likelyhood, the apostles and other disciples had never heard before, and the name was the word rock. It seems like it would have been clear to the disciples when Jesus said "You are Rock, and upon this rock I will build my church" what He meant.
EcceNovaFacioOmni Posted October 6, 2003 Posted October 6, 2003 Look at the entire verse in context and the arguement is even stronger: And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. Matthew 16:18 Notice the word "it". Not "them". He established one Church.
skuba steve Posted October 6, 2003 Posted October 6, 2003 the body of christ isn't made up soley of buttocks.
INRIWarrior3 Posted October 6, 2003 Posted October 6, 2003 Actually Dude, "it" refers to the Church not the Rock/Peter. Secondly, Skuba Steve, watch those low blows (no pun intended but childishly laughing ).
goldenchild17 Posted October 6, 2003 Posted October 6, 2003 Just my personal thoughts on the subject. The following comes from two debates I am having on another forum... No plagiarizing. All is my own work. In 1 Tim. 3:15 it says "But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth" Now, this verse has parallel meanings relating to the issue. First of all, this verse says that "the Pinnacle and foundation of truth" is the Church. From this we can determine that the Church holds the ULTIMATE truth. The next step is to determine what is meant by the "Church". Many Christians think that it means a "collective body of believers". However, the "collective body of believers are so divided in their beliefs about the ULTIMATE truth(the obtaining of eternal happiness). For examples, some faiths believe all that is necessary for eternal happiness is the belief that Jesus is the Son of God and that He died for our sins. Others believe that AND the necessity of following the ten commandments. Still others believe in a thing called PREDESTINATION. This is a teaching that says your eternal happiness(or otherwise) is determined before time and that there is absolutely nothing you can do to alter this plan for you. Because of this great variety of opinions on this "ultimate" truth we can know that not only does the term "Church" in this verse not mean "the body of believers" that is often held, we can also know there IS one specific earthly Church that holds these truths. The only question would be, WHICH CHURCH? How do you know? Well, one way would be to look at history. Which Church has always held by the same beliefs? etc. etc. Also you need to look at this fact. If the Church holds the key to eternal happiness, and this Church is one particular Church; then it would have needed to have been around always since the times of Jesus himself. Many protestants claim that their religion teaches what Jesus and the Early Church taught but that it just happened to be the only Church to "REdiscover" this truth. Well then what happened to all of those people that lived during the 1500 years in between. Jesus himself, in the bible, says that Hell shall Never overcome His Church. That would include those years as well as any other. The Catholic Church is the ONLY, and I repeat ONLY, church to span all that amount of time. This is a FACT that is admitted to by even secular historians and openly enemies of the Church. and... are you saying that you don't think that the Catholic Church holds the ultimate truth? If so we can discuss that if you want. Also, there was no Pope yet because Jesus was still on earth. Peter became Pope as soon as Jesus gave him the word. In regards to your passage. The passage although it is true it does not in any way discuss matters of faith. Take this passage which does... John 6:14-68 Don't focus on the Eucharistic part of it right now. You see in this verse that this is the first time in the ministry of Jesus that any of His disciples leave Him because His teaching is too hard to understand. You seem to say that it doesn't matter which Christian faith one is a part of. Jesus didn't seem to hold this view. He knew that they were leaving because they couldn't accept a teaching of His. Notice he didn't say anything to the effect of, "Hey guys, come on now I'm still here. I'm still God's son. Why're you leaving." No. He let them leave and didn't bother trying to bring them back. Then as you read at the end of the passage He turns to His disciples and asks them, "Do you also wish to leave me?" If these disciples knew that they could not truly follow Jesus and in turn reject His teachings. This is in effect, what the Protestants have done. The Catholic Church is the only Church to hold the same teachings, those of the bible, to the end without ever a breach. The people of Jesus' time knew they had to follow Jesus' teachings if they wanted to follow Jesus. So does the Catholic Church.
ReformationNow Posted October 6, 2003 Posted October 6, 2003 So they believe that Christ was saying Upon Divine Inspiration, I will build My Church. Never heard that one before. I've always heard that Christ was saying that He would build His Church upon Himself.
Trooper4DaHolyG Posted October 6, 2003 Posted October 6, 2003 Wow my Church is built on Jesus as our foundation, have fun with Peter a mere man as yours....
jasJis Posted October 6, 2003 Posted October 6, 2003 Wow my Church is built on Jesus as our foundation, have fun with Peter a mere man as yours.... Well, Troop. You can build YOUR Church any way you want. I want to help Jesus build HIS Church and He told ME, via Scripture, Tradition, and in my Heart, that Jesus wasn't lying to me when He said He would build His Church on Peter. Sometimes it's not the quality of the materials, but the skill of the builder. Have fun with human builders, but we'll be here for you when your church washes away.
Trooper4DaHolyG Posted October 6, 2003 Posted October 6, 2003 with Jesus as a foundation what have I to worry? with Paul as your foundation what have you to worry? oh wooops, yeah theres alot!
Trooper4DaHolyG Posted October 6, 2003 Posted October 6, 2003 ra ra ra don't post on my post! i really has to seriousness to it! I guess i am appaled @ a lot that is being said... answer the real questoon...
jasJis Posted October 6, 2003 Posted October 6, 2003 with Jesus as a foundation what have I to worry? with Paul as your foundation what have you to worry? oh wooops, yeah theres alot! I've got nothing to worry about. Jesus is the Cornerstone. Jesus Christ, True God and True Man is also the Ominipotent and Perfect Builder and Creator of All and He chose Peter, (who is His creation) to be an instrument of His Perfect Grace and serve Him as the Foundation of His Church that also has the Divinity of Jesus Christ as the Foundation. God isn't limited like humans are. His Church has been here for 2.000+ years. He's keeping the light on for ya...
jasJis Posted October 6, 2003 Posted October 6, 2003 ra ra ra don't post on my post! i really has to seriousness to it! I guess i am appaled @ a lot that is being said... answer the real questoon... If I'm frustrating you, tell me what your real question is without sarcasm and innuendo. If I'm just ticking you off, go slam me on the YAB and feel better about yourself. I, and almost everyone else here, are more than willing to honestly and impassionately answer an honest questions posed by an open minded person. There have been lot's of non-Catholics (Christian and otherwise) that have come, asked questions, given opinions, mutually enlighted each other, and left with answers with no body getting upset or angry. We can do the same for you, if you are willing...
Anna Posted October 6, 2003 Posted October 6, 2003 the body of christ isn't made up soley of buttocks. So, Steve, Let me see if I get you straight: Any denomination calling itself "Christian" is a member of the Mystical Body of Christ, and the Catholic Church happens to be the buttocks?"
Trooper4DaHolyG Posted October 6, 2003 Posted October 6, 2003 If I'm frustrating you, tell me what your real question is without sarcasm and innuendo. If I'm just ticking you off, go slam me on the YAB and feel better about yourself. I, and almost everyone else here, are more than willing to honestly and impassionately answer an honest questions posed by an open minded person. There have been lot's of non-Catholics (Christian and otherwise) that have come, asked questions, given opinions, mutually enlighted each other, and left with answers with no body getting upset or angry. We can do the same for you, if you are willing... slam you? you came to conquer and you unfortunately failed! i asked you to come back and express your views. you never corrected your misquoting of hebrews and adressed many issues as weak. It suxed for you you are not the one and only ambasador for Catholicism but there is a strong number of young Christians who had to be show different or they would have been more lost than before... whenever i get involved in a post it comes personal, "oh! the protestant said this lets bag him and place him in JOHN 6". right thanks pplz!
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