All died in Adam...

[justfran]

...but what's this thing with Enoch and Elijah?

[StColette]

Well, I know that the meaning of All died in Adam means that we are all sinful, except Christ because He is God made flesh, and Our Lady because God made her Immaculate. Because of the original sin, death came into the world. Now Enoch and Elijah were exempt from death for a reason. Some believe that they are the two witnesses in the Book of Revelation, and they are killed by the beast. Other than that I'm out of ideas and answers, other than to say God wanted it that way so He did it.

Edited November 6, 2004 by StColette

[phatcatholic]

i have always taken this verse to mean that all inheret original sin, which is "death" to the soul until it is cleansed. since Enoch and Elijah were assumed into heaven, we can only assume that at some time in their life they were cleansed by God.

[yiannii]

Enoch and Elijah??

Where is that in the Bible? LOL

I obviously need to read more of my Bible.

[phatcatholic]

yes, that would probably be a good idea

here are the verses in question:

[u][b]Enoch[/b][/u]
[b]Gen 5:24 [/b]Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him.

[b]Heb 11:5[/b] By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death; and he was not found, because God had taken him. Now before he was taken he was attested as having pleased God.


[u][b]Elijah[/b][/u]
[b]2 Kings 2:11-12[/b]
[b]11 [/b]And as they still went on and talked, behold, a chariot of fire and horses of fire separated the two of them. And Eli'jah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
[b]12 [/b]And Eli'sha saw it and he cried, "My father, my father! the chariots of Israel and its horsemen!" And he saw him no more. Then he took hold of his own clothes and rent them in two pieces.

[b]1 Macc 2:58 [/b]Elijah because of great zeal for the law was taken up into heaven.


pax christi,
phatcatholic

[StColette]

And remember, if I'm not mistaken, in some Bibles Enoch is called Henoch. I know this is true in the DRV

[Guest Aluigi]

Douay Rheims version has names completely different than those most people know.

anyway, this is an awesome argument for an exception to "all have sinned" being Mary

[justfran]

In Paragraph 1021 of the Catechism, it says "Death puts an end to human life [i]as the time open to either accepting or rejecting the divine grace manifested in Christ[/i]."

From that, I guess we *could* say that Enoch and Elijah did die, but didn't suffer the bodily death.
I'm thinking Virgin Mary is different from the rest of us - she has no original sin. In her earthly life, she would have had the free will to disobey God, but being perfect and all and because she's now up in Heaven, she makes every decision perfectly. I think we still have free will in Heaven, but because it's such a cool place, God knows that no one would *want* to get out of there, even with the choices we have.

[Guest Aluigi]

that's not a definition, just one teaching about death.

death is the seperation of the soul from the body, God never created them to be seperated, because of original sin they are seperated at the end of earthly life, but through Christ they will be reunited in the Ressurection of the body

it appears that Enoch and Elijah still have their bodies united to their souls. through the power of Christ's Salvation mystically transposed over space and time.

Jesus and Mary too, are still perfectly united body and soul.

[CatholicCrusader]

[quote name='Aluigi' date='Nov 6 2004, 04:25 PM'] Douay Rheims version has names completely different than those most people know.

anyway, this is an awesome argument for an exception to "all have sinned" being Mary [/quote]
Douay Rheims uses the original English names. The newer Bibles change the names, just like the change much of the verses in order to have an "interpretative translation" (not that the changes of the names does that, but it just goes to show the 'change for the sake of change' attitude and the stripping of the Bible from sacred English that allows to Bible to maintain its antiquity rather than transforming it into a modern novel, which is what they think Genesis is in the first place: a novel).

</end rant>

[Guest Aluigi]

you seem to have a rant about everything. calm down, i was just saying that they're different than the common ones.

it doesn't matter, they're all a lot different in the original languages

[yiannii]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Nov 7 2004, 01:40 AM'] yes, that would probably be a good idea

here are the verses in question:

[u][b]Enoch[/b][/u]
[b]Gen 5:24 [/b]Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him.

[b]Heb 11:5[/b] By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death; and he was not found, because God had taken him. Now before he was taken he was attested as having pleased God.


[u][b]Elijah[/b][/u]
[b]2 Kings 2:11-12[/b]
[b]11 [/b]And as they still went on and talked, behold, a chariot of fire and horses of fire separated the two of them. And Eli'jah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
[b]12 [/b]And Eli'sha saw it and he cried, "My father, my father! the chariots of Israel and its horsemen!" And he saw him no more. Then he took hold of his own clothes and rent them in two pieces.

[b]1 Macc 2:58 [/b]Elijah because of great zeal for the law was taken up into heaven.


pax christi,
phatcatholic [/quote]
Thanks phatcatholic for the trouble

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='yiannii' date='Nov 14 2004, 09:21 AM'] Thanks phatcatholic for the trouble [/quote]
no trouble at all bro

now get ou that bible and start reading!!!

[StColette]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Nov 15 2004, 04:59 PM'] no trouble at all bro

now get ou that bible and start reading!!! [/quote]
Or sign up for the Bible course in the FBC Academy

[yiannii]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Nov 16 2004, 08:59 AM'] no trouble at all bro

now get ou that bible and start reading!!! [/quote]
LOL done and done!