JP2Iloveyou Posted November 10, 2004 Posted November 10, 2004 sorry, that was me responding to Crusader. I forgot to log Pio Nono out again. My bad.
Socrates Posted November 10, 2004 Posted November 10, 2004 [quote name='CatholicCrusader' date='Nov 10 2004, 11:43 AM'] There is no such thing as freedom of religion or freedom of conscience. You don't have "freedom of conscience" to be able to disagree with a Dogma of the Church, and no one has the "freedom" to be any Religion other than Catholic. You have the ABILITY (from free will) but not the RIGHT. Everyone has free-will and therefore the ability to commit any number of sins: abortion, murder, rape, heresy, etc., etc., but that does NOT mean that ANYONE is entitled by right to do that which is wrong. You, not I, it seems, misunderstand what the Church teaches in this area. Either that, or you just think the Church is "too extremist" and "behidn the times" in saying that She alone is the True Religion and there is no freedom to be a different religion. [/quote] People should choose the True Faith out of love and their own free will, not out of fear of being punished or killed by the government! Using force to "convert" is wrong. God gave us free will and intellect to know and choose the Truth. Christ Himself never forced anyone to accept Him. He sacrificed Himself on the cross for love of us, rather than send legions of angels to "convert" the Jews. Men are converted by love and example, not by law or force. A system in which religion is enforced by the government against the will of the people will lead to false conversions, resentment, and a likely armed revolt against the Church. Besides, in a gov't where religion is enforced by the state, what is to prevent the state from using this power to turn against the Church, and declare itself the head of the Church (as Henry VIII did)? CatholicCrusader, you'd do more good trying to work to influence the (existing system) to choose people more in line with Catholic teaching, rather than refusing any participation in the political process until some hypothetical perfect government (which will never appear on this earth) somehow arises. By refusing to support anyone unless they are perfect, you only allow the enemy to gain more control over the political system! And Crusader, I think you, of all people, should be thankful that you have the freedom to express your political and religious views!
JP2Iloveyou Posted November 10, 2004 Posted November 10, 2004 Socrates, couldn't have said it better myself. Thank you.
Sojourner Posted November 10, 2004 Posted November 10, 2004 [quote name='CatholicCrusader' date='Nov 10 2004, 11:47 AM'] I was turned off by his support of a republic diriving its authority from the people (and not God) and the Constitution, both of which have inherent errors. I was also turned off by his protestantism that wanted to outlaw gambling and the like. What was bad about his immigration policies? [/quote] Mr. Peroutka had a really simplistic approach to immigration issues. From his Web site: [quote]As President, one of my top priorities would be to really secure our borders and deport all individuals who are here illegally.[/quote] This fails to recognize that there are literally thousands of people brought to the U.S. as children, who have grown up in the U.S., are contributing members of society, but are not legal residents. Also, Peroutka fails to recognize the fact that many businesses rely on legal immigrants to do work that citizens will not do. We are economically dependent on the labor of immigrants, both documented and undocumented, and removing that source of labor would severaly cripple our economy. It's a short-sighted viewpoint that shows Peroutka would rather say things that appeal to his constituency than accurately understand the issues. I suppose that makes him no worse than other candidates, but it also makes him no better.
JP2Iloveyou Posted November 10, 2004 Posted November 10, 2004 You know what's crazy? I never would have guessed this, the Holy Father calls immigration a bad thing, not just illegal, but legal immigration. He says sometimes it's a necessary evil, but still it is better if people use their skills to better the economies of their own countries. I think it's in Laborem Exercens, but I'm not sure.
cmotherofpirl Posted November 10, 2004 Posted November 10, 2004 Without immigration we would be in the same boat Europe. In fact, WE have a definite advantage with our immigrants, many of them are Catholic!
Sojourner Posted November 10, 2004 Posted November 10, 2004 I just get really twigged off at how badly we treat immigrants, who come to this country for the same reasons our foreparents came to this country. Their employers refuse to pay them for honest work. Their landlords make them live in scumholes and don't bring the properties up to code. We argue they shouldn't be able to get in-state tuition at state colleges, even though many have been living here, working, and paying taxes (the benefits of which they'll never see) for years. Our treatment of immigrants has been SHAMEFUL, and this guy wants to clear up the problem by shipping them all back to their home countries. Whatever.
CatholicCrusader Posted November 10, 2004 Posted November 10, 2004 [quote name='Socrates' date='Nov 10 2004, 04:43 PM'] People should choose the True Faith out of love and their own free will, not out of fear of being punished or killed by the government! Using force to "convert" is wrong. God gave us free will and intellect to know and choose the Truth. Christ Himself never forced anyone to accept Him. He sacrificed Himself on the cross for love of us, rather than send legions of angels to "convert" the Jews. Men are converted by love and example, not by law or force. A system in which religion is enforced by the government against the will of the people will lead to false conversions, resentment, and a likely armed revolt against the Church. Besides, in a gov't where religion is enforced by the state, what is to prevent the state from using this power to turn against the Church, and declare itself the head of the Church (as Henry VIII did)? CatholicCrusader, you'd do more good trying to work to influence the (existing system) to choose people more in line with Catholic teaching, rather than refusing any participation in the political process until some hypothetical perfect government (which will never appear on this earth) somehow arises. By refusing to support anyone unless they are perfect, you only allow the enemy to gain more control over the political system! And Crusader, I think you, of all people, should be thankful that you have the freedom to express your political and religious views! [/quote] That's not what St. Thomas Aquinas says: I answer that, With regard to heretics two points must be observed: one, on their own side; the other, on the side of the Church. On their own side there is the sin, whereby they deserve not only to be separated from the Church by excommunication, but also to be severed from the world by death. For it is a much graver matter to corrupt the faith which quickens the soul, than to forge money, which supports temporal life. Wherefore if forgers of money and other evil-doers are forthwith condemned to death by the secular authority, much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death. On the part of the Church, however, there is mercy which looks to the conversion of the wanderer, wherefore she condemns not at once, but "after the first and second admonition," as the Apostle directs: after that, if he is yet stubborn, the Church no longer hoping for his conversion, looks to the salvation of others, by excommunicating him and separating him from the Church, and furthermore delivers him to the secular tribunal to be exterminated thereby from the world by death. For Jerome commenting on Gal. 5:9, "A little leaven," says: "Cut off the decayed flesh, expel the mangy sheep from the fold, lest the whole house, the whole paste, the whole body, the whole flock, burn, perish, rot, die. Arius was but one spark in Alexandria, but as that spark was not at once put out, the whole earth was laid waste by its flame." [url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/301103.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/summa/301103.htm[/url]
CatholicCrusader Posted November 11, 2004 Posted November 11, 2004 (edited) [quote name='Socrates' date='Nov 10 2004, 08:08 PM'] [/quote] I guess that's the only answer you can give. A simple "you were right; I was wrong," wouldn't hurt your humility, either... Edited November 11, 2004 by CatholicCrusader
Socrates Posted November 11, 2004 Posted November 11, 2004 Concerning immigration, there are currently too many immigrants (legal and illegal) coming into the country. This is not to express hatred of immigrants or foreigners, but immigration should be limited (not stopped altogether). There are too many people living and working in America, who do not identify with America, nor share its values (some who even profess hatred or contempt for America.) Such people have no place here. Many cannot even clearly communicate in English This is in sharp contrast to times past, when immigrants were required to be "Americanized" and demonstrate knowledge of and loyalty to their new country. A country can only absorb so many people of a different culture at a time without its own culture being drastically changed. And immigrants do take jobs from native-born workers, because they will work for cheaper. They are thus exploited by businesses. Many are ignorant of American government and are exploited by (usually liberal democrat) politicians to vote for them out of fear of being shipped back the evil Republicans. While limited immigration is good thing, excessive and illegal immigration can be disasterous to our country. I'm not racist or "anti-foreigner" There are a lot of great immigrants in America, including friends of mine, and many put us native-born people to shame, we just need reasonable restrictions.
Socrates Posted November 11, 2004 Posted November 11, 2004 [quote name='CatholicCrusader' date='Nov 10 2004, 07:24 PM'] I guess that's the only answer you can give. A simple "you were right; I was wrong," wouldn't hurt your humility, either... [/quote] Ah yes, I humbly submit to the mighty and infallible wisdom of the mighty CatholicCrusader! Let's start killing all heretics right now!!!! Slice'n'dice!! Kill em all!!! Let God sort em out!! KILL!!! KILL!! KILL!!! Let the streets run red with the blood of Protestant Scum!!! Put all the Jews in gas chambers and flip the switch!!! Cut off that cancerous disease on the body politic!! Crusader when you become Fuehrer, I wanna be your Chief of Police, so I kill heretics!!! (For those of you who might be offended, this is intended as heavily ironic - for my real thoughts, see my earlier post.)
CatholicCrusader Posted November 11, 2004 Posted November 11, 2004 [quote name='Socrates' date='Nov 10 2004, 08:42 PM'] Ah yes, I humbly submit to the mighty and infallible wisdom of the mighty CatholicCrusader! Let's start killing all heretics right now!!!! Slice'n'dice!! Kill em all!!! Let God sort em out!! KILL!!! KILL!! KILL!!! Let the streets run red with the blood of Protestant Scum!!! Put all the Jews in gas chambers and flip the switch!!! Cut off that cancerous disease on the body politic!! Crusader when you become Fuehrer, I wanna be your Chief of Police, so I kill heretics!!! (For those of you who might be offended, this is intended as heavily ironic - for my real thoughts, see my earlier post.) [/quote] I Corinthians xiii If I speak with the tongues of men, and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. And if I should have prophecy and should know all mysteries, and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. And if I should distribute all my goods to feed the poor, and if I should deliver my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing. Charity is patient, is kind: charity envieth not, dealeth not perversely; is not puffed up; Is not ambitious, seeketh not her own, is not provoked to anger, thinketh no evil; Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth with the truth; Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. Charity never falleth away: whether prophecies shall be made void, or tongues shall cease, or knowledge shall be destroyed. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child. But, when I became a man, I put away the things of a child. We see now through a glass in a dark manner; but then face to face. Now I know I part; but then I shall know even as I am known. And now there remain faith, hope, and charity, these three: but the greatest of these is charity.
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