Prepare for More Persecution

[ironmonk]

[b]Pope dismayed by Catholic Church's waning influence in Europe[/b]
BY LIZ SLY
Chicago Tribune
[url="http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/world/10135704.htm?1c"]http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/n...10135704.htm?1c[/url]

VATICAN CITY - (KRT) - Surveying the world beyond the cloistered walls of its Roman enclave, the Vatican sees much to worry about: Terrorism, war, AIDS and poverty are ravaging the lives of many of its constituents around the globe.

But of all the ills afflicting the modern world, none is causing deeper concern than the rising tide of what Vatican officials call "militant secularism" washing over Europe, its home turf.

The symptoms of that have been piling up thick and fast in recent months:

_In traditionally Roman Catholic Spain, a new socialist government is aggressively promoting legislation that will permit gay marriage, facilitate abortion and speed up divorce.

_In historically Catholic France, the government's ban on the display of "conspicuous" religious symbols in state institutions stirred controversy because it prevented Muslim girls from wearing veils to school, but it also outlawed Christian symbols such as crucifixes.

_And perhaps most galling of all, the new European constitution signed with much fanfare last month just across the river from the Holy See contained no mention of Christianity, despite a vigorous campaign led by the pope for a reference to Europe's "Christian roots" to be included in the preamble.

Vatican officials say they accept that a Europe with a growing Muslim population cannot describe itself as Christian. But the absence of any reference to Christianity came as a bitter blow for an institution that in centuries past laid down the law for the continent's secular rulers.

For the ailing Pope John Paul II, whose 26-year papacy has been marked by a dramatic expansion of the Vatican's authority worldwide, Catholicism's waning influence in Europe is a source of deep dismay, Vatican officials say. The pontiff expressed his regret about the constitution to worshipers at last Sunday's mass in St. Peter's Square, urging Christians to continue to lobby Brussels.

"Taking into account the Christian roots of the European continent remains fundamental for the future development of the union," he told the pilgrims in a voice that witnesses said was stronger than usual.

The omission is more than symbolic; had the reference been included, the Vatican would have been able to challenge Europe-wide legislation that conflicted with its own teachings as unconstitutional, said Marco Politi, the Vatican correspondent for Italy's La Repubblica newspaper.

Instead, the church fears that its teachings will be swept aside, even in countries where its authority still holds sway, by the emerging new European bureaucracy.

"There's a real feeling that the church is under an attack, an aggression, and that it must defend itself against this wave of de-Christianization," Politi said.

The Vatican long ago surrendered authority over the largely Protestant nations of Northern Europe, which broke, often bloodily, with Catholicism in centuries past. Gay marriage is legal in Belgium and the Netherlands, and some form of same-sex union is recognized in several other countries. Britain is making huge strides in the field of embryonic stem cell research. Abortion and divorce are readily available in many European nations.

The prospect that such practices could take hold even in staunchly Catholic strongholds is being perceived by some powerful church figures as a threat to Christianity's very existence. In much publicized comments last month, Cardinal Renato Martino, president of the Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace, attacked what he called a "new holy inquisition" targeting Catholicism in Europe by groups "motivated predominantly by prejudice toward all that is Christian."

It's not just a question of Christianity, or even Catholicism, said Archbishop John Foley, head of the Pontifical Council for Social Communications.

"There's this militant secularism, a denial of spirituality, of the destiny of the human person, and it's a great concern," he said. "A number of Muslim countries are closer to us on these issues than some of the European countries."

The Vatican intends to fight back. It is encouraging churches in Spain to protest the government's legislation. It is constantly exploring new ways to remain relevant to ordinary Catholics. A new Vatican radio program features cardinals discussing soccer. A newly published Vatican-endorsed sex manual called "It's a Sin Not to Do It" encourages married couples to have more sex.

But Politi, a veteran Vatican watcher, suspects it is too late for the Vatican to reverse the tide.

"All they can do is protest. They can't do more," he said. "The fact is that the church in Europe represents a minority view. So many countries and most public opinion simply don't support the stance of the Catholic Church any longer."

[Piccoli Fiori JMJ]

Poor Papa! And I though it was only America going down the drain...

[Sinner]

Ouch........ prayers.

[toledo_jesus]

well...we all knew the world is a terrible place.

[littleflower+JMJ]

please please PLEASE pray for Spain!! everythign above is TRUE!! straight from a missionary who is over there right now, they are losing it......

we need to pray because it was LESS than 60 years ago the priests were being killed....and it could very easily start up again....

Pray for Spain!!

[cathoholic]

Praying

[+joyfulnoise+]

I just heard about France today in my sociology class!!
Oh, this world....I AM PRAYING!!!

P.U.S.H.
pray.until.something.happens.

[toledo_jesus]

Does anybody think that the Church is gonna have to go underground in most of Europe? I can see it happening.
And what about religious in France? Are they not allowed to wear rosaries or crosses?

[cmotherofpirl]

Students are not allowed to wear religious garb in school.

Edited November 10, 2004 by cmotherofpirl

[RandomProddy]

As the token European on the board atm (I dunno where PedroX and Ellenita are atm) I feel I have to answer this.

As this was written by an American newspaper, I will tailor the answer, so whilst the state of British religious practise may be abhorrent to the eyes of the Vatican, it can be viewed from an American standpoint looking at "atheist Europe".

The article is generally accurate, but I'd like Britain to be thought of seperately for the following reasons.

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Nov 10 2004, 05:29 AM']In traditionally Roman Catholic Spain, a new socialist government is aggressively promoting legislation that will permit gay marriage, facilitate abortion and speed up divorce.[/quote]

Point to note: There has been considerable talk in parliament here about further limiting abortion, so in fact we are getting better, not worse.

Compared to the U.S, the UK has very strict laws. Whilst in America the Judges of the Supreme Court can rule a law "unconstitutional" (Roe v Wade) the judiciary here can't generally run roughshod over law as much as they can in the U.S.

Here no-one can have an abortion after 24 weeks unless the mother's life is in danger or the child is badly dsiabled. Whilst this law isn't good enough, it's a lot better than most.

And, pardon me for saying so, an American lecturing us on divorce?!?!

[quote]In historically Catholic France, the government's ban on the display of "conspicuous" religious symbols in state institutions stirred controversy because it prevented Muslim girls from wearing veils to school, but it also outlawed Christian symbols such as crucifixes.[/quote]

There is no such law in the UK. In fact there are laws here that [i]require[/i] that religion is taught in schools here up to the age of 16. And, unlike in the US, teaching creationism is not prohibited.

[quote]_And perhaps most galling of all, the new European constitution signed with much fanfare last month just across the river from the Holy See contained no mention of Christianity, despite a vigorous campaign led by the pope for a reference to Europe's "Christian roots" to be included in the preamble.[/quote]

The Head of State of the UK [b]Must[/b] be christian to sit on the throne. The state is officially christian. Granted, it's not Catholic, but at least it's not atheist.

Britain is generally looked down upon by most of Europe as it's the least socialist.

[quote]Vatican officials say they accept that a Europe with a growing Muslim population cannot describe itself as Christian. But the absence of any reference to Christianity came as a bitter blow for an institution that in centuries past laid down the law for the continent's secular rulers.

For the ailing Pope John Paul II, whose 26-year papacy has been marked by a dramatic expansion of the Vatican's authority worldwide, Catholicism's waning influence in Europe is a source of deep dismay, Vatican officials say. The pontiff expressed his regret about the constitution to worshipers at last Sunday's mass in St. Peter's Square, urging Christians to continue to lobby Brussels.[/quote]

Britain supported the reference to Christianity in the Constitution. France over-ruled it.

[quote]..and some form of same-sex union is recognized in several other countries. Britain is making huge strides in the field of embryonic stem cell research. Abortion and divorce are readily available in many European nations.[/quote]

This is very unfortunate, but the divorce rate here is nowhere near is bad here.

[quote]It's not just a question of Christianity, or even Catholicism, said Archbishop John Foley, head of the Pontifical Council for Social Communications.

"There's this militant secularism, a denial of spirituality, of the destiny of the human person, and it's a great concern," he said. "A number of Muslim countries are closer to us on these issues than some of the European countries."[/quote]

And a further insult to the Church in most of Europe. Here in the UK (and in the US) a priest can marry a couple without the state having to ratify the marriage. You get married in church, case closed, enjoy the honeymoon

However, in "staunchly catholic" countries like Italy and Ireland (IRELAND?!?!), a priest has no such power. If a couple get married in church there, the marriage is not valid until they have a second ceremony in a state registry office. In other words, the state does not recognize the power of the church to bind couples together in holy matrimony.

Edited November 10, 2004 by RandomProddy

[ironmonk]

[quote name='RandomProddy' date='Nov 10 2004, 11:29 AM'] As the token European on the board atm (I dunno where PedroX and Ellenita are atm) I feel I have to answer this.

As this was written by an American newspaper, I will tailor the answer, so whilst the state of British religious practise may be abhorrent to the eyes of the Vatican, it can be viewed from an American standpoint looking at "atheist Europe".

The article is generally accurate, but I'd like Britain to be thought of seperately for the following reasons.



Point to note: There has been considerable talk in parliament here about further limiting abortion, so in fact we are getting better, not worse.

Compared to the U.S, the UK has very strict laws. Whilst in America the Judges of the Supreme Court can rule a law "unconstitutional" (Roe v Wade) the judiciary here can't generally run roughshod over law as much as they can in the U.S.

Here no-one can have an abortion after 24 weeks unless the mother's life is in danger or the child is badly dsiabled. Whilst this law isn't good enough, it's a lot better than most.

And, pardon me for saying so, an American lecturing us on divorce?!?!



There is no such law in the UK. In fact there are laws here that [i]require[/i] that religion is taught in schools here up to the age of 16. And, unlike in the US, teaching creationism is not prohibited.



The Head of State of the UK [b]Must[/b] be christian to sit on the throne. The state is officially christian. Granted, it's not Catholic, but at least it's not atheist.

Britain is generally looked down upon by most of Europe as it's the least socialist.



Britain supported the reference to Christianity in the Constitution. France over-ruled it.



This is very unfortunate, but the divorce rate here is nowhere near is bad here.



And a further insult to the Church in most of Europe. Here in the UK (and in the US) a priest can marry a couple without the state having to ratify the marriage. You get married in church, case closed, enjoy the honeymoon

However, in "staunchly catholic" countries like Italy and Ireland (IRELAND?!?!), a priest has no such power. If a couple get married in church there, the marriage is not valid until they have a second ceremony in a state registry office. In other words, the state does not recognize the power of the church to bind couples together in holy matrimony. [/quote]
That was from the Vatican. Hence the "VATICAN CITY - (KRT)" at the beginning.

It's not coming from an American... it's an American giving the reason that they learned from the Vatican to Pope's worries.


God Bless,
ironmonk

[RandomProddy]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Nov 10 2004, 04:56 PM'] That was from the Vatican. Hence the "VATICAN CITY - (KRT)" at the beginning.

It's not coming from an American... it's an American giving the reason that they learned from the Vatican to Pope's worries.


God Bless,
ironmonk [/quote]
"BY LIZ SLY, Chicago Tribune". The reporter is an American in the Holy See. It can't be guaranteed that this report is a Vatican edict. Though I do see your point, I won't press further.

Edited November 10, 2004 by RandomProddy

[azaelia]

[quote name='RandomProddy' date='Nov 10 2004, 10:29 AM'] Here no-one can have an abortion after 24 weeks unless the mother's life is in danger or the child is badly dsiabled. [/quote]
This kind of law makes me soooo MAD!!! :angry: :angry: :angry: They would have aborted my best friend's brother...the most caring, loving, wonderful person in the world, just because he's disabled!!! :irate:

[/rant]

This world is headed in a bad direction...but it's inevitable, and all we can do is pray.

[RandomProddy]

[quote name='azaelia' date='Nov 10 2004, 05:20 PM'] This kind of law makes me soooo MAD!!! :angry: :angry: :angry: They would have aborted my best friend's brother...the most caring, loving, wonderful person in the world, just because he's disabled!!! :irate: [/quote]
Yeah, I don't like this law at all.

But there's debate on dropping it (UK and EU law states it's illegal to discriminate on the basis of disability) so aborting people because they are disabled but not aborting healthy babies is discriminatory.

Bear in mind it's being tightened up, not liberalized.

[mamalove]

This is why I want to visit Europe very soon . . . before it is gone.

[Guest Aluigi]

UK is gettin better. rest of Europe is gettin worse.

America is gettin better, case in point the exit polls of the recent elections: people voted based on MORALS, and it's lookin more and more like Roe v. Wade could be overthrown in our lifetime.

you're right about the judges, i think it was Thomas Jefferson who originally predicted that the Judiciary Branch would destroy the Republic.

I recently posted a map regarding abortion laws, and seeing as it was from a pro-abortion site the white countries were the abortion on demand, the blue were more restrictive than that, the pink were really restrictive and the red most restrictive... the southern hemisphere had tons of red and pink (WOOOHOO) Australia was blue, and the UK was blue, and basically the rest of the northern hemisphere (exception of Portugal and Republic of Ireland) was white.

Anyway, it's really good news that it appears that the U.K. and the U.S. are the countries startin to get better, more morally conservative.

[Guest Aluigi]

[img]http://bettnet.dyndns.org/blog/images/uploads/eusigning.jpg[/img]

check out the irony of the signing of the E.U. Constitution under a statue of the Pope

[url="http://bettnet.dyndns.org/blog/comments.php?id=P4133_0_1_0"]http://bettnet.dyndns.org/blog/comments.php?id=P4133_0_1_0[/url]

[Noel's angel]

I'm trying to improve the young people of Northern Ireland (ignorant children, unfortunately)

[Balthazor]

"_In historically Catholic France, the government's ban on the display of "conspicuous" religious symbols in state institutions stirred controversy because it prevented Muslim girls from wearing veils to school, but it also outlawed Christian symbols such as crucifixes"

I don't know if this is more because of secularism or because of xenophobia. They are also prohibiting Jews to wear yarmulkas in school.
I think they just outlawed the yarmulkas and crucufixes so it wouldn't look like they were singleing out muslims.
I mean they didn't seem to have a problem with crucifixes and yarmulka until there was a significant muslim population.....
think about it.

[Ash Wednesday]

I agree that hard times are ahead, especially in Europe.

I am, and always will be, a voting American citizen. But I might end up living in Europe. Naturally people will ask me why I would want to do such a thing -- but you see, no matter where you go, you want to plant seeds of faith, and to keep the flame of faith alive. So if any place needs seeds planted, it is Europe.

Europe is very secular, but there are pockets of good noble people there. I've noticed it is different than the U.S. -- we have Catholics that attend mass but are pretty casual about the religion -- in Europe, the Catholics that actually show up to mass are pretty serious about their faith. I could be wrong but that is my experience.

I've always wondered why Europeans and Americans approach religion so differently. Maybe it is because in America, when we established this country, we made it a point of allowing freedom of religion and not having a state sponsored church. In Europe they had that with mixed results and perhaps people are wary of religion because of it. Just my guess, anyway.

My prayers for this situation, anyway.

Remember, God always has the last word!