Faith Alone

[ICTHUS]

[quote]no, that proves that he committed a grave sin against a commandment of Almighty God (one of the big Ten) knowingly and fully consented to not doing it.  he feels as if he's culpable for this sin, he knows that if he is that means he has killed his faith and any professed faith would simply be a banging gong, devoide of faith or love.[/quote] Except that this flies completely in the face of a text like Romans 5:1 - we don't have a temporary cease-fire with God for as long as we behae, we have [b]peace[/b] with Him by faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.

[quote]  now did he really commit a mortal sin?  if he died tonight would he go to hell?  not necessarily, but he did make the point he is not saved by works, just because he is such a devoted person to the sacraments doesn't mean he cannot go to hell.[/quote] I disagree. His attitude is clearly boastful of how righteous he is by his own works (receiving the sacrament of the Lord's Supper, as for penance, it is not a sacrament, though the Papists say that it is). He probably is bound for Hell, but not because he commited any one sin, but because he trusts in his own works to save him, and refuses to trust in Jesus alone for his salvation.

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' date='Nov 23 2004, 09:04 PM'] [/QUOTE]
thats so outlandish

u want a pat on the back
should we call you super catholic ???
get real [/quote]
It is outlandish. It is also trusting in his own works for salvation, rather than in Jesus.

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='Aluigi' date='Nov 23 2004, 09:08 PM'] does no one see the humility behind his admission of the danger he has put himself in by a sin of grave matter?

it's an observation that the majority of people in the world are not devoted to the sacramants. okay, it could tread dangerously near the sin of pride (but who amoung us has never been guilty of that?) but it is still a reasonable observation.

i see his statement as fairly humble, though he possibly had too high of a degree of despair in the tone, i think it was because he was making a point. i don't know though. one should have more hope than that, Catholic doctrine will reaffirm. [/quote]
No. All I see is a person who trusts in himself making his own soul righteous by doing good works (receiving the Sacraments) rather than by trusting in the justification received by faith alone.

[Guest Aluigi]

well then you truly have been blinded by mistruth.

Edited November 26, 2004 by Aluigi

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' date='Nov 23 2004, 09:14 PM'] i know alota hard working middle class people
who belive in their heart that Jesus is Lord
who raise a family, and do the best they can
and as long as they keep their faith in the lord
their gonna be just fine.......regardless if they make every single mass or one a month......i know alot of you are gonna disagree with that...but so be it

When you start makeing comments like " Theres a very good chance i will go to hell cuz i missed mass tongiht " Then your takeing away the love and the very essence that makes up God....your makeing him look stupid....God dont work that way

And when you say " I ASSURE YOU THERE ARE FEW BREATHING IN THE WORLD TODAY THAT ARE AS DEVOTED AS I AM " your makeing me fall off my chair and laugh..........Imagine wut God is doing when he hears that......Out of the whole world, your one of the best ??? hehe righttttt [/quote]
I hear you, Delivery Boy. We are justified by faith in Christ, and we have peace with the Father thereby, not by how many times we go to Mass in one month.

It is a sin, and very dangerous to one's faith, to give up the fellowship of believers (cf. Heb 10:25), and if one persists in this sin it is probably indicative that his conversion was a false one, since a justified person will naturally seek out fellowship within the New Covenant. However, my salvation is not dependent on whether or not I sleep in one morning and miss church, but upon my trust in the Lord Jesus Christ (having said that, I do make my utmost effort to get to church every Sunday, but unfortunately my church only has a morning service, so sometimes when I must be away on a Sunday morning I am forced to do without, as only the Papists in my city have evening worship)

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='Aluigi' date='Nov 23 2004, 10:20 PM'] well if your soul is in a state of mortal sin, it can't stand to be in God's presence.  it wouldn't accept heaven if God offered it.  your soul enters eternity with mortal sin and doesn't even want heaven (though of course anyone's intellect or emotions would tell them to want heaven, the state of the soul decides).  God is the judge, yes, but he judges according to the state of a soul never impeding on the free willhe gave to them [/quote]
This is an attempt to rip wrath out of God's mouth. A person who arrives before His judgement seat who has not been justified by faith through the imputation of Christ's righteousness is repulsive before Him and justly deserves the outpouring of His condemnatory wrath for eternity. He does not put himself in Hell. God condemns him there. Hell is not the 'absence of God' - God is very much present in Hell - in but not in His love, as in Heaven - he is present in His fury and wrath.

Edited November 26, 2004 by ICTHUS

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='Aluigi' date='Nov 26 2004, 05:04 PM'] well then you truly have been blinded by mistruth. [/quote]
In what way? Interact with what I said and don't make ridiculous statements like "You've been blinded by mistruth" - I could just as easily say that [b]YOU[/b] have been blinded by the mistruth inherent in your Papist 'church' - I suspect that accusations of this nature aren't going to get us anywhere, though.

[Guest Aluigi]

in the way that admitting one's own grevious faults is an act of humility, and because of your contempt for the way he believes he should follow Christ you don't see that, you only see some dumb wrong Catholic who is going to hell.

on many occasions you have done the same thing to our posts, that unbacked up statement was a taste of your own medecine.

anyway, yeah, you have been blinded if you cannot see Don John's humility and honesty in that public confession of a sin agaisnt God's Holy Commandment.

faith is dead without works, works sustain faith. what are works that keep faith alive?
7 sacraments- in this age of the New Covenant, when God Almighty has condescended to become a visible flesh and blood human being, God works primarily through physical accidence to convey His invisible grace, so that we as creatures of the physical world can be assured of the grace not tainted by emotions.
7 spiritual works of mercy, 7 corporal works of mercy- you do good to others, you're doing good to Christ undercover. It increases your faith, feeds your faith.

[Guest Aluigi]

it is still God's wrath, but a more dynamic understanding to say that if He wanted to (which He does because He wills all men be saved, albeit His passive will) let the soul into heaven, it wouldn't want to go anyway because it is tainted by sin and dragged down by the own evil damage become inherent to the soul when it entered into eternity. God does beaver dam the person, because He cannot stand the presence of sin, and the person cannot stand the presence of God.

[ICTHUS]

[quote]in the way that admitting one's own grevious faults is an act of humility, and because of your contempt for the way he believes he should follow Christ you don't see that, you only see some dumb wrong Catholic who is going to hell.[/quote] If it truly were an act of admitting his own grevious fault, he wouldn't have added "There are few in the world so devoted....as I". He is like the Pharisee who went to the temple to pray alongside the tax collector - the pharisee gloried in the things he had as gifts from God and used them to say "Thank you, God that I am not like him", whereas the tax collector beat his breast and despised all his works, but simply pleaded for mercy.

[quote]anyway, yeah, you have been blinded if you cannot see Don John's humility and honesty in that public confession of a sin agaisnt God's Holy Commandment.[/quote] I would have seen it, had he not said "There are few so devoted" With that added, it makes the statement nothing but the arrogant statement of a man who glories in his own works.

[quote]faith is dead without works, works sustain faith.  what are works that keep faith alive?[/quote] I don't deny that works keep faith alive, otherwise St. Peter saying stuff like what is written in 2 Peter 1:3-10 would seem pretty silly. I deny that these works have any bearing on our legal status before a holy God.

[quote]7 spiritual works of mercy, 7 corporal works of mercy- you do good to others, you're doing good to Christ undercover.  It increases your faith, feeds your faith.[/quote] One might enumerate good works in this manner, however, where does Scripture do so? This is just another unbiblical complication of the Romish Church.

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='Aluigi' date='Nov 26 2004, 05:44 PM'] it is still God's wrath, but a more dynamic understanding to say that if He wanted to (which He does because He wills all men be saved, albeit His passive will) let the soul into heaven, it wouldn't want to go anyway because it is tainted by sin and dragged down by the own evil damage become inherent to the soul when it entered into eternity. God does beaver dam the person, because He cannot stand the presence of sin, and the person cannot stand the presence of God. [/quote]
An interesting notion. At first glance, I can't see anything wrong with it - and you're not denying that it is God who makes the decree "unrighteous", and not trying, as I first suspected, to rip wrath out of His mouth.

[Guest Aluigi]

Read Matthew 25

1 For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat:
2 I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink:
3 I was a stranger, and you took me in:
4 Naked, and you covered me:
5 sick, and you visited me:
6 I was in prison, and you came to me.

The 7th is from Joseph of Arimathea's noble action of burying Jesus, to bury the dead.

I'm pretty sure you can find the 7 spiritual works too, i'll have to look. i know you can find the 7 gifts of the Holy Spirit fully listed out in Isaiah. I think the 7 spiritual works of mercy would be seperated out dispersed through St. Paul's letters, you can look for them if you want I'm positive each one is there even if they're seperated.
1. Admonish the sinner
2. Instruct the ignorant
3. Counsel the doubtful
4. Comfort the sorrowful
5. Bear wrongs patiently
6. Forgive all injuries
7. Pray for the living and the dead
Admonishing sinner is certainly in Paul's letters, instructing ignorant i'd prolly look in the timothy letters, counsel doubtful maybe in John's letters? comfort the sorrowful prolly in john or james i think, bear wrongs patiently i'd bet would be in peter, forgive all injuries from the words of Jesus Himself I'm sure, pray for the living and the dead definitely

hmm... maybe you could find them all in the beatitude sermon Matthew 5 come to think of it...

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='Aluigi' date='Nov 26 2004, 06:09 PM'] Read Matthew 25

1 For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat:
2 I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink:
3 I was a stranger, and you took me in:
4 Naked, and you covered me:
5 sick, and you visited me:
6 I was in prison, and you came to me.

The 7th is from Joseph of Arimathea's noble action of burying Jesus, to bury the dead.

I'm pretty sure you can find the 7 spiritual works too, i'll have to look. i know you can find the 7 gifts of the Holy Spirit fully listed out in Isaiah. I think the 7 spiritual works of mercy would be seperated out dispersed through St. Paul's letters, you can look for them if you want I'm positive each one is there even if they're seperated.
1. Admonish the sinner
2. Instruct the ignorant
3. Counsel the doubtful
4. Comfort the sorrowful
5. Bear wrongs patiently
6. Forgive all injuries
7. Pray for the living and the dead
Admonishing sinner is certainly in Paul's letters, instructing ignorant i'd prolly look in the timothy letters, counsel doubtful maybe in John's letters? comfort the sorrowful prolly in john or james i think, bear wrongs patiently i'd bet would be in peter, forgive all injuries from the words of Jesus Himself I'm sure, pray for the living and the dead definitely

hmm... maybe you could find them all in the beatitude sermon Matthew 5 come to think of it... [/quote]
Sure, you can enumerate them like that, however, [b]why[/b] would you do so? Why not just address a persons need, rather than enumerating those needs and making them into some kind of special list.

[Guest Aluigi]

because Jesus listed them as reasons He would say "well done good and faithful servant". Catholics figured they better take note.

anyway, I think we've made a breakthrough. can we both give this statement of mine a nihil obstat to our beliefs? (that none of it contradicts what we believe to be true Christian Doctrine, )
[quote]it is still God's wrath, but a more dynamic understanding to say that if He wanted to (which He does because He wills all men be saved, albeit His passive will) let the soul into heaven, it wouldn't want to go anyway because it is tainted by sin and dragged down by the own evil damage become inherent to the soul when it entered into eternity. God does beaver dam the person, because He cannot stand the presence of sin, and the person cannot stand the presence of God.[/quote]

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='Aluigi' date='Nov 26 2004, 06:26 PM'] because Jesus listed them as reasons He would say "well done good and faithful servant". Catholics figured they better take note.

anyway, I think we've made a breakthrough. can we both give this statement of mine a nihil obstat to our beliefs? (that none of it contradicts what we believe to be true Christian Doctrine, )
[/quote]
As I said, at first glance, there doesn't appear to be anything wrong with it.

[Guest Aluigi]

i'll take that as sortof like your little nihil obstat, nothing stands in the way.

anyway, I really don't want to keep debating Don John's motives. We can reconcile our beliefs about God's judgement of a person somehwhat which is nice. Howa bout we move on to clarify the works and faith thing and the status before God.

you say works do not affect your standing before God. would you say your level of faith affects your standing before God?

[ICTHUS]

Whoa - I said that works do not affect a persons legal declaration of righteousness from God. Certainly, a person who habitually does more good works, etc, is more sanctified, but not more justified.

[quote]would you say your level of faith affects your standing before God?[/quote] No, so long as it is a faith that trusts in Jesus for the forgiveness of sins - that is why a three year old or a mentally retarded person can be saved. I should note that it would be sinful not to endeavour to increase our faith, but a little faith is enough. However, we ought always to pray "Lord, I believe, help my unbelief!"

Edited November 27, 2004 by ICTHUS

[Guest Aluigi]

someone of little faith (not mustard seed size, because that's a small pure faith of potential, but little faith as in "oh ye of little faith", little faith unnourished by works) is then just as justified as someone of great faith?

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='Aluigi' date='Nov 26 2004, 07:18 PM'] someone of little faith (not mustard seed size, because that's a small pure faith of potential, but little faith as in "oh ye of little faith", little faith unnourished by works) is then just as justified as someone of great faith? [/quote]
No - a persons faith must produce works. I'm not denying t that. WHat i AM DENYING is that those works have any bearing on our legal status as "Just" before a holy God.

[Krush2k2]

Justified by faith alone? Its easy I guess for someone to live by that creed when they get can get high all the time, get drunk, and curse thier parents and not attend church-but yet they belive in God for fear of hell-they fear God. I know tons of people-go to any high school and ask-who belive in God, and persay trust in him, yet behind the red line do many of those things listed above. Isnt good works a part of true faith? Truly beliveing in God is seeing a line that offends him, and constantly sinful acticities is like a slap on his face, but no no, protestants belive just belive and you are 'saved' for life. How can you be saved before death? Why toss that word around like its a reward? Confess your belife and your 'saved'! Give me a break. God gives us free will-we have the chance to show our love and obediance. Catholics know good works are proof of good faith. Protestant seem to go for a more shallow definition of the word. (BTW im referring to those who throw out the good works is good for the soul argument) Catholics seek a deeper one.

With respects,
Ryan