need help with athiest argument

[SirMyztiq]

If there is one man that has discredited the Church forever it would be Thomas Paine. I know it's out of topic but I just got done reading "common sense"

Critical think this...Critical think that...give it up dude.

I "critical think" but if you want to call research "critical thinking" then go ahead. I doubt you just used "critical thinking" to say any of the stuff you did.

HUMANS did create time. To explain better. We created the concept of time. Nothing more. Without humans the concept of time wouldn't exist. Time is almost connected with the ability to change or changing. That is why many scientist believe that if we ever reach Absolute Zero everything will stop because at that instant time is "frozen" on whatever it is they froze and will cause a chain reaction and would cause other things to "freeze" because that would be a hole in the continium(sp) of time. For example a black hole. A black hole's singularity is said to be the "end of time" because everything is squeezed almost to nothing. Time is not a constant there.


I argue in favor of REALITY. I don't need some fantasy story about some powerful being creating this place just for the heck of it. For everything there is an explanation and even though we can't prove those theories such as the big bang then we can only analyze and speculate from what we know.

We know that the moon was created when it hit the earth causing the tilt on the earth and then it was trapped under the earths gravitational pull. We know the sun was created from the big bang and that it pretty much arranged the way the planets are aligned. We know that earth is placed on a perfect place for life to begin due to the many asteriods hitting the earth, melting and allowing water to stay here in earth. And due to the distance from the sun water was perserved and other planets the water either froze or evaporated away.

The big bang as many other theories are largely based on chances and occurence. We know, or think we do, that the universe is infinitely large.

Physics is away to actually prove events and occurences in the real of chance and reality. There is proof that is provided and then we go from there.

The only proof of a God was a man made book that people claim to be the word of God.

Without humans there would be no God. B/c only to humans do Gods exist. So in essence if God did create us he essentially created the concept of his own existence.

The universe is who knows how many years old. That alone supports the "magically created" molecules and particles. They were here way before this happened. And due to the extreme size of this universe it's impossible to think that the creation of this universe is too random. It's not. Things like these happen all the time.

Edited November 16, 2004 by SirMyztiq

[louisville]

The big bang as many other theories are largely based on chances and occurence?

"If the initial explosion of the big bang had differed in strength by as little as 1 part in 10 raised to the 60th power, the universe would have either quickly collapsed back on itself, or expanded too rapidly for stars to form. In either case, life would be impossible. (an accuracy of one part in 10 to the 60th power can be compared to fireing a bullet at a one-inch target on the other side of the observable universe, twenty billion light years away, and hitting the target.)

Calculations indicate that if the strong nuclear force, the force that binds protons and neutrons together in an atom, had been stronger or weaker by as little at 5%, life would be impossible.

Calculations indicate that if gravity had been stronger or weaker by 1 part in 10 raised to the 40th power, then life-sustaining stars like the sun could not exist. This would most likely make life impossible.

If the neutron were not about 1.001 times the mass of the proton, all protons would have decayed into neutrons and all neutrons would have decayed into protons, and thus life would be impossible.

If the electromagnetic force were slightly stronger or weaker, life would be impossible for a variety of reasons.

Imaginative, one could thing of each instance of fine-tuning as a radio dial: unless all the dials are set exactly right, life would be impossible. Or, one could think of the values of the initial conditions of the universe and the fundamental parameters of physics as coordinates on a dart board that fills the whole galaxy, and the conditions necessary for life to exist as a small one-foot wide target: unless the dart hit the target, life would be impossible. The fact that the dials are perfectly set, or the dart has hit the target, strongly suggests that someone set the dials or aimed the dart, for it seems enormously improbably that such a coincidence could have happened by chance."

-Robin Collins (im not robin collins (i did not make up them calculations))

[louisville]

time is a measure of sequince. The fact the one thing happens after another thing means that thier is time. Therefore, time is not a human concept, it is a reality that we observe and call time.

Outside of time, everything has happened, is happening, and will happen at the same time. "a thousand years in your eyes (God's) are merely a yesterday." psalm 90

[ironmonk]

[quote name='SirMyztiq' date='Nov 15 2004, 09:54 PM'] HUMANS did create time. To explain better. We created the concept of time. Nothing more. Without humans the concept of time wouldn't exist [/quote]



:rotfl:


The "logic" that you are applying would mean that...
we created gravity
we created electricity
we created fire
etc...

No bro... we did not create the concept of time. Time was already here before we were. We came up with a way to measure it... nothing more.

A wise man will admit when he's wrong instead of building strawmen to defend the fallicy.


God Bless,
ironmonk

[Crusader_4]

Perhaps before you explain a theory such as the Big Bang as the creation of the universe one should realize that this concept and theory was devolped and introudced by a Catholic Priest. Funny how that stuff works eh?

[Mary's Knight, La]

ok one thing at a time:

if God didn't create the universe where did it come from?

If you believe in big bang then what caused the singularity or whatever it was to explode when it previously didn't?

if you believe everything was already the way it was, what happened to suddenly set things in motion?

either way you must explain change in a system that was not inclined to change.

a thing must exist before it can be set in motion because it must be set in motion by another thing which must have been set in motion it self ... wash, rinse, and repeat... until you get to something which must have been set in motion by something that had motion of it's own. which is physically impossible.

otherwise please explain motion.

peace out

[White Knight]

[quote name='louisville' date='Nov 14 2004, 02:46 PM'] I was having a discussion with an athiest friend yesterday. He made one comment that I didn't exactly know how to answer. So I need some help.

He said that people rationalize to things that they want to believe and in this way, we make up the existance of God because we believers want to believe in God.

Thanks for the help. [/quote]
Its a odd counter, that your conversation communicator has come up with, yet its highly flawed indeed.... Use his own Science if he is agureing science against him, use whatever he says about science disproving God, against him, and convience him how our World is put together by Mass, Billion & Trillions of Cells and Atoms and Neutrons, etc etc, use that if you want too. [b]Also tell him that it is all impossible for our existance to even occured without some sort of designer (creator/ God). Convience him of that, and youve pretty much destroyed his agurment.[/b]

[SirMyztiq]

Without humans there wouldn't be a concept of time.
Regardless if there is still time. Time exist because we know it's there.

Same can apply to God.
If we didn't exist to believe there is a God. God wouldn't exist.
But since we are here and some believe in God. He exist. Regardless if he really does or not. God is a creation of man. Just like time.

Time exist only when there is movement. Because if you take notice everything moves according to a certain time or according to time in general. If suddenly a particle, or a group of particles stops moving. Time would not affect it because there is no change within the particles. Time is also measured in the speed of light. That's why many believe that possibly traveling faster than the speed of light would move faster than time and essentially move backward.

"Time it is an essential component of the physical laws of the universe. Without a clearly defined direction of time, the fundamental concepts of motion, gravity, electricity, nuclear and chemical interactions, entropy, and so on, will no longer operate in the ways we observe."

"We made time according to the position of the moon around earth, and earth around the sun."

Time is not a constant in the universe. So essentially there is no "time" there is just change.

"People say to me, god made earth and i ask who made god. They say god has always been around. So surely he doesn't live in time. Time cannot exist for him (or indeed wherever he comes from).... Are we just inside a game of god??? "

[url="http://com4.runboard.com/bfarfrontiers.forum13"]http://com4.runboard.com/bfarfrontiers.forum13[/url]

^^^

Nobody created the universe. Where did those stars billions of lightyears away come from? What do they look like? What is on them? Who knows. What set it off?

[url="http://www.umich.edu/~gs265/bigbang.htm"]http://www.umich.edu/~gs265/bigbang.htm[/url]

About 15 billion years ago a tremendous explosion started the expansion of the universe. This explosion is known as the Big Bang. At the point of this event all of the matter and energy of space was contained at one point. What exisisted prior to this event is completely unknown and is a matter of pure speculation. This occurance was not a conventional explosion but rather an event filling all of space with all of the particles of the embryonic universe rushing away from each other. The Big Bang actually consisted of an explosion of space within itself unlike an explosion of a bomb were fragments are thrown outward. The galaxies were not all clumped together, but rather the Big Bang lay the foundations for the universe.

[God Conquers]

As Charles de Foucault said in his french accent:

"In order for there to be a big bang, there had to have been a big banger!"

[CatholicCrusader]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Nov 15 2004, 09:31 AM'] Time is the what it takes for the earth to spin one 360 degree rotation. Time is also a product of the result of the earth rotating around the sun. [/quote]
I don't know if this will add anything to the debate or not--I have not been following this thread. This is for ironmonk:

Actually, by the heliocentric theory (which is far from proven, and until either is I will err on the side of geocentrism, which has existed for a longer period of time and is at least taught fallibly by the Church), a 360 degree revolution of the earth is not "time". That is one day (23 hrs 59 mins 30 so seconds). One year is the rotation of the earth completely around the sun. As I said, though, I don't subscribe to a heliocentric theory.

Time by definition is: a nonspatial continuum in which events occur in apparently irreversible succession from the past through the present to the future.

What you defined first is actually one way of measuring time. A year is simply the measure of time. A day is the measure of time. The movements of the heavenly bodies are used to help us measure time. They are not themselves time.

[CatholicCrusader]

[quote name='Mary's Knight' date=' La,Nov 16 2004, 12:43 AM'] ok one thing at a time:

if God didn't create the universe where did it come from?

If you believe in big bang then what caused the singularity or whatever it was to explode when it previously didn't?

if you believe everything was already the way it was, what happened to suddenly set things in motion?

either way you must explain change in a system that was not inclined to change.

a thing must exist before it can be set in motion because it must be set in motion by another thing which must have been set in motion it self ... wash, rinse, and repeat... until you get to something which must have been set in motion by something that had motion of it's own. which is physically impossible.

otherwise please explain motion.

peace out [/quote]
That is a good, simple explanation of the Proof of the Existence of God taught by St. Thomas Aquinas:

The first and more manifest way is the argument from motion. It is certain, and evident to our senses, that in the world some things are in motion. Now whatever is in motion is put in motion by another, for nothing can be in motion except it is in potentiality to that towards which it is in motion; whereas a thing moves inasmuch as it is in act. For motion is nothing else than the reduction of something from potentiality to actuality. But nothing can be reduced from potentiality to actuality, except by something in a state of actuality. Thus that which is actually hot, as fire, makes wood, which is potentially hot, to be actually hot, and thereby moves and changes it. Now it is not possible that the same thing should be at once in actuality and potentiality in the same respect, but only in different respects. For what is actually hot cannot simultaneously be potentially hot; but it is simultaneously potentially cold. It is therefore impossible that in the same respect and in the same way a thing should be both mover and moved, i.e. that it should move itself. Therefore, whatever is in motion must be put in motion by another. If that by which it is put in motion be itself put in motion, then this also must needs be put in motion by another, and that by another again. But this cannot go on to infinity, because then there would be no first mover, and, consequently, no other mover; seeing that subsequent movers move only inasmuch as they are put in motion by the first mover; as the staff moves only because it is put in motion by the hand. Therefore it is necessary to arrive at a first mover, put in motion by no other; and this everyone understands to be God.

Edited November 16, 2004 by CatholicCrusader

[jasJis]

[quote name='SirMyztiq' date='Nov 15 2004, 07:54 PM'] I argue in favor of REALITY. I don't need some fantasy story about some powerful being creating this place just for the heck of it. For everything there is an explanation and even though we can't prove those theories such as the big bang then we can only analyze and speculate from what we know. [/quote]
SirMiztaken,
Okay. Let's deal with REALITY.

What reality existed before the beginning of Time?

What existed before the Big Bang?

What caused the Big Bang?

What is the probablity of the that a chaotic explosion of all matter and energy created the ordered existince we presently observe?

Why did animal life on earth evolve as it did with the varied species when pure Darwinism would have streamlined evolution to optimal inhabitants for each environment millions of years ago?

Why did Einstien believe in God?

[Mary's Knight, La]

[quote name='SirMyztiq' date='Nov 16 2004, 01:21 AM'] Without humans there wouldn't be a concept of time.
Regardless if there is still time. Time exist because we know it's there.

Same can apply to God.
If we didn't exist to believe there is a God. God wouldn't exist.
But since we are here and some believe in God. He exist. Regardless if he really does or not. God is a creation of man. Just like time.

...removed for space...

"Time it is an essential component of the physical laws of the universe. Without a clearly defined direction of time, the fundamental concepts of motion, gravity, electricity, nuclear and chemical interactions, entropy, and so on, will no longer operate in the ways we observe."

...

Time is not a constant in the universe. So essentially there is no "time" there is just change.

"People say to me, god made earth and i ask who made god. They say god has always been around. So surely he doesn't live in time. Time cannot exist for him (or indeed wherever he comes from).... Are we just inside a game of god??? "


About 15 billion years ago a tremendous explosion started the expansion of the universe. This explosion is known as the Big Bang.

At the point of this event all of the matter and energy of space was contained at one point.

What exisisted prior to this event is completely unknown and is a matter of pure speculation. This occurance was not a conventional explosion but rather an event filling all of space with all of the particles of the embryonic universe rushing away from each other.

The galaxies were not all clumped together, but rather the Big Bang lay the foundations for the universe. [/quote]
we agree I think change happens whether we observe it or not we just measure changes by other changes... whether you leave it at the word change or use time is inconsequential the fact is it happens whether we observe it or not. Same with God, He's there whether you know it or not.


now all your info on the big bang is fine and dandy but utterly irrelevant. Where did the material or energy for motion come from?

1. it was created

2. it was always there. the problem i have with it always having been there is motion. when we get down to it we must have started with a force being introduced to an object. that force must have an origin. if that origin was another object then either:
A, one of the objects must have come into the force exerting range of another object either through being in motion toward that object in which case we must ascertain the cause of it's motion toward the exerter, or the exerter moved close enough to the object to exert it's force on it, in which case we must look at the motion of the exerter

or
B, some object spontaneously started exerting force

the difference between our religions is yours asks you to have faith in change without a reason mine asks me to have faith in a reason for change.

questions for you:

is space(and by this i mean the set of all places) infinite? and if so what force could cause it to come together for the big bang? if not why does it have the dimensions it does?

even if we could know for a fact what happened prior to the big bang, what happened before that?

you're still left with change without reason, i'll still have a reason for change.

[SirMyztiq]

[quote name='CatholicCrusader' date='Nov 16 2004, 02:41 AM'] I don't know if this will add anything to the debate or not--I have not been following this thread. This is for ironmonk:

Actually, by the heliocentric theory (which is far from proven, and until either is I will err on the side of geocentrism, which has existed for a longer period of time and is at least taught fallibly by the Church), a 360 degree revolution of the earth is not "time". That is one day (23 hrs 59 mins 30 so seconds). One year is the rotation of the earth completely around the sun. As I said, though, I don't subscribe to a heliocentric theory.

Time by definition is: a nonspatial continuum in which events occur in apparently irreversible succession from the past through the present to the future.

What you defined first is actually one way of measuring time. A year is simply the measure of time. A day is the measure of time. The movements of the heavenly bodies are used to help us measure time. They are not themselves time. [/quote]
YES.

Time is change without the possibility of going back to undo that change.

[SirMyztiq]

[quote name='jasJis' date='Nov 16 2004, 07:44 AM'] SirMiztaken,
Okay. Let's deal with REALITY.

What reality existed before the beginning of Time?

What existed before the Big Bang?

What caused the Big Bang?

What is the probablity of the that a chaotic explosion of all matter and energy created the ordered existince we presently observe?

Why did animal life on earth evolve as it did with the varied species when pure Darwinism would have streamlined evolution to optimal inhabitants for each environment millions of years ago?

Why did Einstien believe in God? [/quote]
Jis I don't need the play on words.

You are not dealing with reality sadly. You are dealing with an infinite chain of questions in a lame attempt to put some reason behind your believe that this universe was created by a being that has always been here.

To answer all of your questions:

Big Bang models describe the creation of all the dimensions of space including time itself, so that to ask "what happened before the big bang?" is meaningless in the same way as asking "what was god doing before it created time?"


We all find ourselves asking what the origin of existence is. Where did it all start? The Big Bang theory is one theory, there are many other theories, for example Teloscopic Creation (where matter is repeated in - or wraps around - the middle, and expands, for infinity) also the Biblical Theory.

At some point in time, the universe was created. If the universe was infinite then it was never created - this is something that could be true but it would certainly mean that a god did not create it. Within the context of this discussion, for the sake of the theists, we will assume the universe is finite. Now given that something must have caused the universe to exist the question is, what was it? And what caused that?

"Why could the cause of the universe not be something like an eternal, immutable God who needs no cause for his existence? Well, the mere existence of God, or of any other object, could not causally explain why the universe came into existence. It must be something about God which does the explaining, such as his willing the universe to exist. But has he, for all time willed the universe to exist? Why then, did it not come into existence sooner?
"If there is a cause of the Universe's coming into existence at precisely the moment it did, then it is something which obtained just before that event. We are then led to ask why that cause obtained when it did."

Robin Le Poidevin, "Arguing for Atheism", pp13

What this is saying is: If God created the universe, then God existed before the universe did. Why did God create the universe at the time He did? Why not earlier, or later?

The problem of what caused God to create the Universe pretty much means that there were other things going on before God created the universe and this is a contradiction! So, it cannot be true that God created the Universe. It is also true that God cannot have created Time - in order for time to be created it must be finite, which of course it can't be, because the creation of time must have occurred before time, which is not possible.

This is a problem if we want to believe in standard monotheism - for it cannot be that a god created the universe. If god did not create Time, or the Universe, what else can we extrapolate that it did not create? It must be the things that are properties of Time and of the Universe and the things that defined those. So, such things as the Dimensions of the Universe, major physical constants and the mass/energy sum total were not created by God.

God(s), if any exist, must be therefore be products of the Universe, perhaps evolving during the initial expansion of the universe? Our god would be more local, not infinite and not omniscient. Omniscience requires a certain non-physical nature, and as god is a product of the universe it could not be omnipotent, omniscient or omnipresent. I.e., not all-knowing all-powerful or all-seeing.


[url="http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/universe.html"]http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/universe.html[/url]



We are FAR from an ordered existence. Do you really see the universe as something orderly? Unless you are speaking of "order" from the human perspective. That is about the only "order" in the universe.

Natural selection. Evolution. Adaption...

Einstein on God:

The social impulses are another source of the crystallization of religion. Fathers and mothers and the leaders of larger human communities are mortal and fallible. The desire for guidance, love, and support prompts men to form the social or moral conception of God. This is the God of Providence, who protects, disposes, rewards, and punishes; the God who, according to the limits of the believer's outlook, loves and cherishes the life of the tribe or of the human race, or even or life itself; the comforter in sorrow and unsatisfied longing; he who preserves the souls of the dead. This is the social or moral conception of God.

If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed. [Albert Einstein]

I do not believe in the God of theology who rewards good and punishes evil. [Albert Einstein, as quoted in a memoir by Life editory William Miller in Life, May 2, 1955]
It has not done so up to now. [Einstein's reply to a reporter's question if religion will promote peace]

[url="http://atheism.about.com/library/quotes/bl_q_AEinstein.htm"]http://atheism.about.com/library/quotes/bl_q_AEinstein.htm[/url]

Einsteing just happened to be an ATHEIST.

[Mary's Knight, La]

"has He for all time..." He created time all of it, so the answer is yes. Just like a sculptor isn't inside His sculpture but rather is outside of it and working on it. God is outside of time. There is no before He created the universe... because there is no before there was a universe. Time/change had a definite start, it started with God's will.


in the "NOW" called eternity God is willing the creation from start of time to end of time of the universe. There isn't a before He willed it and after He willed it, only a He *is willing* it.

you could try thinking of a movie reel, there's a beginning and an end and a series of things happening in between but in the now you're experiencing reading this the whole movie reel exists. In the now of eternity the whole universe start to end exists, and its existence is caused by God's will.

your post asks what about before the universe but there is no beginning of the reel before the beginning of the reel.

there's no complete analogy, it's much like the frog telling the fish about dry land.

Edited November 17, 2004 by Mary's Knight, La

[ironmonk]

[quote name='CatholicCrusader' date='Nov 16 2004, 04:41 AM'] I don't know if this will add anything to the debate or not--I have not been following this thread. This is for ironmonk:

Actually, by the heliocentric theory (which is far from proven, and until either is I will err on the side of geocentrism, which has existed for a longer period of time and is at least taught fallibly by the Church), a 360 degree revolution of the earth is not "time". That is one day (23 hrs 59 mins 30 so seconds). One year is the rotation of the earth completely around the sun. As I said, though, I don't subscribe to a heliocentric theory.

Time by definition is: a nonspatial continuum in which events occur in apparently irreversible succession from the past through the present to the future.

What you defined first is actually one way of measuring time. A year is simply the measure of time. A day is the measure of time. The movements of the heavenly bodies are used to help us measure time. They are not themselves time. [/quote]
I had to keep it simple.

If there was nothing, there would not be time. For time to be, something has to happen. Like you wrote... a continuum in which events occur in apparently irreversible succession

The example I used was to show the continuum for a mind to understand it. The arguement stated that if it wasn't for humans, time wouldn't exist... since the earth was here before we were and it had a succession of events, that shows that time existed before man.


God Bless,
ironmonk

[Crusader_4]

A group of fish had gathered together to discuss the possibiitly on the existence of an ocean. At the same time a group of scientists had a meeting to discuss the possibility of a God.

[AfroNova No Limit Soldier]

Any mathematicians here?

I majored in math in college. I studied math in 1-dimension, 2-dimension, 3,4,5, and 6-dimension (space and hyperspace), black holes, and abstract numbers.

To bring it down to the vernacular: Ever seen the Matrix? It's not the best movie (I thought the 2nd one sucked), but it has a point:

Everything must balance.

You see, there is absolute truth out there. Math is an absolute truth. Math is the mother of all sciences, the mother of everything - chemistry, biology, poetry, music, art, etc.

I'm not a genius. I'm not Gaus, Pascal, or Pasteur (all devout Catholics by the way), but I know this: 1+1=2. Here on earth, under the sea, in space, in black holes, 100000000 gazillion years ago and 1000000000000000000000 gazillion years from now. This is true. This is absolute truth. And this is not true for other things like science - gravity, even things like the speed of light are not constant. But there is one science that is constant, once science that is truth.

1+1=2.

So there is absolute truth. And everything must balance. Math is complex yet simple. I was calculating a+b=c in space, and I still had to use 1+1=2.

And absolute truth cannot come from nothing, from zero. Even in math, zero does not mean nothing. Zero is something.

Alas, absolute truth must come from a higher being. And there are other absolute truths. Like love. My parents have taught me this. They have caught me stealing, cheating, cursing, lying, doing numerous immoral things that I must censor here. They beat the **** out of me until I was bleeding, crying, on the floor. They would threaten me with knives, and beat each other up.

But when I gave my life to Jesus 2 years ago, after I graduated college, after I had gotten rich, (I graduated college when I was 20, got a lucrative job, and bought a house when I was 21) - I knew I was missing something. Something absolute. Something true. So I decided to give God a chance. I decided to give my parents a chance.

And now my life couldn't be better.

1 John 4:8 God is agape

Ever wonder why people hate math?
Ever wonder why people hate God?

Because they're so true. People begin to understand themselves. And it's scary.

You don't believe there's a God? I respect that. But find out, don't just make something up. Go study math. Go study the Church. Go study absolute truth.

I hope I'm being clear here. Let me know if you have any questions. I'm pretty tired so I might be unclear in some places.

JMJ

[FiZzGiG]

I've never seen a description of math put so beautifully...

:wub:

I might actually be able to enjoy math now!


btw, this argument is really interesting. it's like theology+science+math

it sounds so... so... brilliant!