Affirmative action

[hopeful1]

what are your thoughts?

[Thy Geekdom Come]

I prefer equal opportunity.

[CatholicCrusader]

It's ridiculous... it's racist against the majority.

[jmjtina]

if your white, it's not good.

if your a minority, it sure helps....to some degree. But you'll still face discrimination.

Edited November 16, 2004 by jmjtina

[SirMyztiq]

I think it makes up for the hundreds of years that the whites have oppressed the blacks and other groups of people in general. If used properly it can help avoid discrimination and it's impossible to think that discrimination is completely gone in this country.

I'm pro affirmative action until I get thru college!

LOL

Just kidding.

I hear alot of white people whine about scholarships for "mexicans" and so on. Hmm...sorry those are private institution giving money to whomever they want.

Affirmative action works when used correctly.

[mulls]

yes, most people don't know what affirmative action is really intended to do, and how it is really supposed to work. if i had my notes i could elucidate, but i don't, so i won't.

sad fact: many institutions that practice affirmative action intentionally practice it wrongly, just so it will make people mad and want to abandon it.

[cmotherofpirl]

I don't think they practice it wrongly, they have good intentions, and not much else.

The good college I attended tried affirmative action, but they did it badly. They lowered the standards and accepted people who were not qualified to be in our program and then didn't understand why they couldn't cut it. They also created resentment among the rest of us who had worked our butts off to be accepted.
Bad job all around.

[amarkich]

Affirmative action is flawed and illogical. Even in the erroneous American system it is unconstitutional (at least as a theory). Its intention is to form an [i]ex post facto law[/i] insofar as its very purpose is to reward people who have never been subject to an unlawful act (all blacks or minorities in general) and to punish those who have broken no law (whites and males in general). This is unjust and is an [i]ex post facto[/i] law by intent. In reality, it is even worse than an [i]ex post facto[/i] law. An [i]ex post facto[/i] law is a law that punishes a person for committing an act that was lawful when he committed it; e.g., punishing a plantation owner for owning slaves (even though it was legal). Affirmative action is even worse because it punishes a person who never even committed the inital act at all, and on top of that, it rewards a person who was not harmed in any way. Pretty ridiculous...

[Kilroy the Ninja]

[quote name='SirMyztiq' date='Nov 16 2004, 01:24 AM'] I think it makes up for the hundreds of years that the whites have oppressed the blacks and other groups of people in general. If used properly it can help avoid discrimination and it's impossible to think that discrimination is completely gone in this country.

I'm pro affirmative action until I get thru college!

LOL

Just kidding.

I hear alot of white people whine about scholarships for "mexicans" and so on. Hmm...sorry those are private institution giving money to whomever they want.

Affirmative action works when used correctly. [/quote]
As a Mexican, I actually turned down scholarships because I didn't think it was fair that I should get them just because I am Mexican.

Just try and have a scholarship only open to "white" students and listen to the whining begin.

Affirmative action had it's day, but this country needs to move on beyond it. The most qualified person should get the job. Not the person that fits the quota.

[Sojourner]

Although I don't support many of the ways in which affirmative action has been implemented, I do support the idea behind it -- to reduce discrimination in places like the workplace and universities.

The ideal is, as Kilroy said, that the most qualified person should get the job. Period. But we all know that doesn't always happen. Qualified people get passed over for jobs because of their race. Women make less money than men.

Affirmative action is an awkward attempt to level the playing field, to do something about the fact that our economy is seriously skewed in favor of one particular gender and race, and to make it possible for others to compete. It's hasn't been a perfect fix, and perhaps it has outlived its usefulness, but from my perspective, the idea behind it isn't all that bad.

[amarkich]

Sojourner, please answer my objections if you believe in affirmative action. Further, do you believe that it is wrong that women are paid less? Do you believe that women should be in the workplace? Do you believe that women can have positions of authority over a man (I am not talking about children, of course, but men)?

[Sojourner]

[quote name='amarkich' date='Nov 16 2004, 01:25 PM'] Sojourner, please answer my objections if you believe in affirmative action. [/quote]
Adam, I never said I believe in affirmative action. I said I support the idea behind affirmative action: to reduce discrimination in places like the workplace and universities.

That being said, I’m not sure I agree with your assessment that affirmative action is an ex post facto law. In the strict sense, an ex post facto law is one which would retroactively alter a person’s rights by criminalizing and imposing punishment for an act for which this person was not criminally liable at the time the act was committed. Affirmative action does not do this. To the best of my knowledge, affirmative action was not retroactive ... it only applied to behaviors that occurred after the laws were enacted at a federal level. And, to the best of my knowledge, there is no criminal liability for a failure to comply with affirmative action requirements – it’s all civil liability. In American law, the term ex post facto refers exclusively to criminal law.

But enough with vocabulary. The question at hand is one of justice. Many minorities have found themselves victims of acts of oppression at the hands of the majority. These are acts which affected not only the original victims, but also their children, and their grandchildren, and so on down the line. The majority benefited from the acts, and so did their children, and their grandchildren, and so on down the line. At the end, you have majority grandchildren, who although they did not actually commit bad acts are nonetheless enjoying the fruits of these acts. You also have minority grandchildren, who although they were not themselves victim of bad acts have nonetheless lived with the consequences of these acts.

How does this injustice become resolved? The lingering effects of wrong actions linger, even though the original perpetrators are long gone. It is this injustice which affirmative action seeks to address. It goes about it in a clumsy way, but the problems are pervasive throughout our society.

[quote]Further, do you believe that it is wrong that women are paid less?[/quote]
Yes. I personally encountered this in my first job ... I was hired at a certain hourly rate right out of college, and a guy was hired shortly after me at a significantly higher hourly rate. I quit not too long after I found this out. Ridiculous. We had the same level of education, similar experience.

[quote]Do you believe that women should be in the workplace?[/quote]
Yes. I'd be awfully hungry if I couldn't work.

[quote]Do you believe that women can have positions of authority over a man (I am not talking about children, of course, but men)?[/quote]
Yes, depending on the position.

[rachael]

i think it's dumb

[SirMyztiq]

[quote name='Kilroy the Ninja' date='Nov 16 2004, 12:18 PM'] As a Mexican, I actually turned down scholarships because I didn't think it was fair that I should get them just because I am Mexican.

Just try and have a scholarship only open to "white" students and listen to the whining begin.

Affirmative action had it's day, but this country needs to move on beyond it. The most qualified person should get the job. Not the person that fits the quota. [/quote]
It's not a matter of being fair when it comes to scholarships. I haven't seen ONE white scholarship so therefore who knows how the public will react. Also when qualifying for such a scholarship literally hundreds of white people meet them just because they have hispanic blood. It isn't unfair it's just the way it is.

Affirmative action does make up for the past. If you had parents that grew up during the 50's or 60's or grandparents during the 30's or 40's chances are that you're family social condition now would not be as high as a white family who didn't have to put up with suppression and banned rights. I don't know too many blacks or hispanics that had the money to put their kids in a private high school, middle or even elementary school. On the other hand the majority of private schooled children are from families that weren't subjected to the injustices of the past.

White people worked hard for their money. But blacks and hispanics had to wait until the civil liberties reform.

I agree that people that meet qualifications should be accepted. But it's not always easy to get those qualifications depending on the place you grew. A college might accept a grade A student and also a grade D and therefore maybe rejecting a grade A. But both grade A students came from private highschools while grade D was from a public school. Most of the time though these decisions are never only solely based on race. Both applicants are qualified. The difference comes in with why the grade A had a better chance to get those qualifications.

[hopeful1]

bumping

[popestpiusx]

Affirmative action is a joke. People should e judged entirely upon their merits, not their ethnicity.

[cmotherofpirl]

There also must be a way to overcome the fact that not all school districts are created equal, and many people, given half a chance can excell and overcome their starting piont.

Opportunity is the problem, not ethnicity.

[popestpiusx]

Opportunity is not defined as lowering the standard so some black guy, who the government assumes is to stupid to succeed on his own, can get into a school that he may or may not be qualified to get into. But he gets in anyway because he is black, not because he is qualified.

Not all school systems are created equal? What level of school are we talking here? College? Of course not. Nor should they be. Some schools are better than others or excel at different things. There is nothing wrong with that. Is man not the same? Not everyone has the ability to handle the academic rigor of MIT. Should they make it easier there so that half wits like me can succeed? Should they require MIT to allow a cetain number of minorities? No and No. The school is what it is. Merit speaks for itself. If you are good enough, you can get in. If not, go somewhere else.

[Sojourner]

It is ridiculous to think that intelligence -- merit -- is the only factor that determines whether or not someone can make it through the doors of MIT, or any other post-secondary school.

Perhaps the single largest factor that comes into play is poverty. Not all school districts are created equal, as Cmom said – and she’s talking, I’m sure, about elementary and secondary schools. Access to resources, to high-caliber teachers, and the social factors that play into a student’s life all play a role in the quality of education he or she will receive before ever thinking about college.

Even if a kid does manage to overcome growing up poor in a single-parent home, the chances of having the money or the encouragement to go on to college are not that great. It happens, sure, but not as often as it should.

[hopeful1]

[quote name='Sojourner' date='Nov 19 2004, 11:55 AM'] It is ridiculous to think that intelligence -- merit -- is the only factor that determines whether or not someone can make it through the doors of MIT, or any other post-secondary school.

Perhaps the single largest factor that comes into play is poverty. Not all school districts are created equal, as Cmom said – and she’s talking, I’m sure, about elementary and secondary schools. Access to resources, to high-caliber teachers, and the social factors that play into a student’s life all play a role in the quality of education he or she will receive before ever thinking about college.

Even if a kid does manage to overcome growing up poor in a single-parent home, the chances of having the money or the encouragement to go on to college are not that great. It happens, sure, but not as often as it should. [/quote]
I'm starting to think along these lines as well. I used to look at affirmative action in the past as reverse discrimination against whites (men & women), but after doing some research on the minority achievement gap in education and the related issues like racial, social, and economic factors, it really made me reconsider the issue, especially as things like poverty can last in families for generations. These conditions are usually more prevalent in minorities. Of course i believe the most qualified person should get the job in the end, regardless of race-and i think everyone on both sides of the issue believe that. The question i keep looking at is opportunies the less advantaged person was actually given to become qualified. as cmom and soujourner said, not all institutions are created equal. to add to this, not all institutions educate their students equally. especially if they come from low income families, go to innercity schools, or face teachers who already think that minority students are doomed to fail. I also think what region of the country you live in makes a difference on the amount of discrimination one faces. this is just a guess on my part, but i think a minority-let's say a black person would face more discrimination in the south than up north. However, this may be naive of me to say becuase i am white, but i think there is less racial discrimination today than there was back in the day (although by no means is it nonexistant!), yet it's you can see the lingering effects of racism in this generation. Perhaps there is still a need for affirmative action. I just question if lowering the standards for excellence or fullfilling racial quotas is the answer...