Krush2k2 Posted November 23, 2004 Posted November 23, 2004 Just a question for thought, based on the Church's teachings on Mortal Sin-not based on human judgment as much- This is not reallie an interfaith debate question, or a question about Catholicism in general- Martin Luther is held to many outside the church as a great person as we all know-but since he left the church and rejected it, was he in the state- assumingly he didnt talk to a preist for forgivness before his death- of Mortal Sin? Its wierd to think of him in Hell with his devotion to Mary, the sacraments, and Eucharist, etc.. Opinions?
Thy Geekdom Come Posted November 23, 2004 Posted November 23, 2004 None of us have the right or authority to assume that anyone is in Hell, as we can't judge hearts or read minds. It is very possible that Martin Luther may have been insane (and, quite frankly, some of his diary entries certainly give the impression). We can only hope that when we get to Heaven, we will meet him there and that he will have been forgiven whatever sins he might have committed.
Don John of Austria Posted November 23, 2004 Posted November 23, 2004 Why is that weird I didn't go to church last week I could have but I didn't if I die tonight there is a VERY good chance I will go to Hell and I assure you there are few breathing inthe world today as devoted to the sacraments as I--- Luther shattered Christiandom--- I hope he sought forgiveness before his death--- but I suspect he is beinging eternaly eaten by Satan in the 9th circle of Hell--- hey Judas needs the company.
Krush2k2 Posted November 23, 2004 Author Posted November 23, 2004 OUCH, what happens, lets say I missed mass or commited mortal sin tonight and I said an act of contrition, and before I got to to get forgiveness from a priest, I died in a car accident-am I gonna be in hell according to the Church? lol
Balthazor Posted November 23, 2004 Posted November 23, 2004 [quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Nov 23 2004, 12:49 AM'] Why is that weird I didn't go to church last week I could have but I didn't if I die tonight there is a VERY good chance I will go to Hell and I assure you there are few breathing inthe world today as devoted to the sacraments as I--- Luther shattered Christiandom--- I hope he sought forgiveness before his death--- but I suspect he is beinging eternaly eaten by Satan in the 9th circle of Hell--- hey Judas needs the company. [/quote] Someone is a Dante Fan.
Don John of Austria Posted November 23, 2004 Posted November 23, 2004 Krush2k2-- unless you where on your way to confession at the time Yes you would have died in mortal sin and could find yourself in Hell--- as the specifics of a mans salvation or Damnation are not for me or any human being to Judge I dare not say for sure however death with a mortal sin on your soul is A WAY to Hell.
Krush2k2 Posted November 23, 2004 Author Posted November 23, 2004 Oh man-I don't understand why it works that way-especially with a sincere act of contrition. So a extremely moral person, full of good works-very conservative, raises a strong family, could be in eternal hell, eternal torture because he missed one mass, even though he said an act of contrition-man, Guess nobody I know will be in heaven lol
XIX Posted November 23, 2004 Posted November 23, 2004 [quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Nov 23 2004, 12:49 AM'] Why is that weird I didn't go to church last week I could have but I didn't if I die tonight there is a VERY good chance I will go to Hell and I assure you there are few breathing inthe world today as devoted to the sacraments as I--- Luther shattered Christiandom--- I hope he sought forgiveness before his death--- but I suspect he is beinging eternaly eaten by Satan in the 9th circle of Hell--- hey Judas needs the company. [/quote] Death with mortal sin is the only way to Hell. I'm 98% sure the Church has defined that. What else would their be? Venial sin? that's purgatory. I'm very very rarely 100% about anything.
Guest Aluigi Posted November 23, 2004 Posted November 23, 2004 good works don't save, protestantism ignores the real other side of that. that said, if you have perfect contrition (not something that should ever be assumed, but it's very possible especially for a man of faith and devoutness) you go to heaven (prob purgatory first, who knows).. anyway, we leave judgements about perfect contritiion to God, so here on earth we have recourse to the Sacrament of Penance
Balthazor Posted November 23, 2004 Posted November 23, 2004 I think God is more just than that I have heard of Baptism of desire...wouldn;t the same consept apply to confession? If you were driving on your way to confession....sincere about confessing your sins and repenting..and you were killed......I think God would understand
Guest Aluigi Posted November 23, 2004 Posted November 23, 2004 Don John specifically mentioned if you were on your way to confession. the only thing he left out that needs to be elaborated is perfect contrition, never assume it regarding a mortal sin but it exists and gives us hope for those who die without confessing their mortal sin, if we knew they had great faith and devoutness and were truly sorry for their sin it's quite possible for them to have perfect contrition. who did i learn this from? prolly Fr. Mitch Pacqua, but I'm kinda thinkin Aquinas.. anyway i'm pretty sure it's credible, God forgives when there is perfect contrition
XIX Posted November 23, 2004 Posted November 23, 2004 Hmmm, I have heard that it's okay to recieve communion after commiting a mortal sin if and only if you have repented and you could not find a priest. If you receive under those circumstances, you need to go to confession as soon as you can after the Mass. This is what I have heard...any second opinions out there? When I say that, you'd have to and want to search very very hard to find a man to confess to. It isn't just "oh he isn't here, I'll just wait around" kinda deal. I want to make it clear that when you are in mortal sin, you go to confession ASAP and I mean ASAP!!!
Thy Geekdom Come Posted November 23, 2004 Posted November 23, 2004 You can be 100% sure on this. Venial sins, no matter how many, cannot send you to Hell. That is no reason to go ahead and commit them, of course (generally venial sins are "gateway sins" to the mortal variety). If you make an act of perfect contrition and die, then you will go to Heaven. If you make an act of perfect contrition and don't die, then you still need to go to Confession, because the actual forgiveness for that perfect act of contrition is granted on death, so if there is no death, even if you thought there would be, there is no forgiveness applied for it and Confession is still necessary. Don't let that be a reason to commit all the sins you want and hold off for a deathbed Confession or perfect act of contrition...people have tried that and very few have succeeded, because most people when dying are so caught up in the pain and suffering of death that they can't bring their minds and hearts to it. A perfect act of contrition, by the way, is when you are completely contrite of all your sins "because you fear the loss of Heaven and the pains of Hell, but [b]most of all, because they offend God," who is all good and deserving of all your love.[/b] Perfect contrition requires being sorry for sins for the reason simply that they are wrong and that you have violated your Creator's will.
Krush2k2 Posted November 23, 2004 Author Posted November 23, 2004 PERFECT CONTRITION-whats the Churchs EXACT teaching on this?
Thy Geekdom Come Posted November 23, 2004 Posted November 23, 2004 [quote name='Krush2k2' date='Nov 23 2004, 02:14 AM'] PERFECT CONTRITION-whats the Churchs EXACT teaching on this? [/quote] Read above.
Guest Aluigi Posted November 23, 2004 Posted November 23, 2004 back to the topic, it's probably about as likely that ML's in hell as it is that Judas is. well, i think it's more likely for judas, greed and deicide then suicide and all; ML died of natural causes and there are reports that he regretted his actions on his death bed. never give up hope, but it's okay to say it's very probable he went to hell, at the very least i betchya purgatory for a looong time.. who knows. may God have mercy on that poor misguided fool.
Krush2k2 Posted November 23, 2004 Author Posted November 23, 2004 Ahh my bad, I posted right after you posted the definition-good to know
Krush2k2 Posted November 23, 2004 Author Posted November 23, 2004 What about Non-Catholics-but devout Protestants-I wonder what standards God holds them to according to forgiveness since they dont see Priests for it.
XIX Posted November 23, 2004 Posted November 23, 2004 [quote name='Raphael' date='Nov 23 2004, 01:14 AM'] Don't let that be a reason to commit all the sins you want and hold off for a deathbed Confession or perfect act of contrition...people have tried that and very few have succeeded, because most people when dying are so caught up in the pain and suffering of death that they can't bring their minds and hearts to it. [/quote] I'd say you're far far far more likely to gain that "deathbed bonus" if you aren't aiming for it, as well. If you live your whole life holy and you're praying for your soul and the souls of others, wouldn't that make you far more likely to have those prayers answered in the form of a deathbed confession? And Anointing of the Sick, for that matter. Plus, isn't one of the Promises of the Rosary that you won't die without the Sacraments?
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