How do you know if you are in Christ's Church?

[ironmonk]

We know that the Apostles all taught One Faith.

Many call this "One Faith in Jesus Christ"... but they do not realize what that means.

[b]John 14:16[/b]
[color=red]And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate to be with you always, [/color]
[b]17 [/b][color=red]the Spirit of truth, which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it. But you know it, because it remains with you, and will be in you. [/color]
[b]18 [/b][color=red]I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.[/color]



[b]1 Tim 3:15[/b]
But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.



Above we see that the Sprit of Truth will always be with the Church. We also see that the Church is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth. This means that the Church cannot be wrong. To be the foundation and pillar means that the Church in needed to know the Truth.... God's Truth. It is impossible to have truth without the Church.



So we must ask... "Which Church did Christ start?"


How can we know with all the conflicting stories?


For one, we must look through history.

We must ask ourselves... can we find at least two people in each century since the time of Christ, that are 100% believing in everything originally taught since 33 AD?

Those two people from each century would also all agree with the others.

Find this, and you will know where the Church built by Christ is.

If anyone is in a church that [b]cannot [/b]show at least two people in each century since Christ that do not contradict anything taught by that church today, then they are in the wrong church.

Surely the True Church built by Christ will have at least two people in each century that do not contridict the teachings of the Church. Because truth cannot contradict truth. What is true is true and always will be true. 2 + 2 will always be 4. Just as the Church established by Christ will always have the Truth.


So far... in all my searches... Only the Catholic Church fulfills this challenge.


The three choices that you have as a Christian are...
1.) Prove it wrong
2.) Become Catholic
3.) Deny God and become an Athiest

If you choose to ignore these statments that I have made... How can you call yourself Christian? A Christian will want to be in Christ's Church. If you haven't been able to find two people in each century since 33 AD to have the same beliefs as the church you are in, then you know full well that you are not in the right Church. Given the facts that Christ and the Apostles laid out about what the Church is. A Christian will be able to prove these statements wrong and show two Christians that believe everything they do from every century since 33 AD.

In the context given, Church cannot be the people because we all contradict one another... How can Truth contradict Truth?!




God Bless,
ironmonk

[ironmonk]

It's sad how so many people ignore these simple facts and are focused more on trying to prove the Catholic Church wrong (which is impossible) instead of focusing on if they are in the True Church.


God Bless,
ironmonk

[Fool4Christ]

*applause*

[CatholicCrusader]

bump

[Quietfire]

no arguement from me.



Pax

[conservativecatholic]

It's simple. You look at historical facts and realize that the Roman Catholic Church is Christ's Church founded in 33 AD.

[Chanman450]

splendid iron monk, splendid
*shows off new swanky latin Mass sig*

Edited November 24, 2004 by Chanman450

[Balthazor]

in total agreement iron....


Chanman I love your sig.....

[homeschoolmom]

wow... big sig...

[mulls]

speaking of that sig, you're telling me [i]that's[/i] the church that Jesus started?

seriously.

[Balthazor]

wazza problem mulls?....good to see you again by the way

[ironmonk]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Nov 23 2004, 10:56 PM'] It's sad how so many people ignore these simple facts and are focused more on trying to prove the Catholic Church wrong (which is impossible) instead of focusing on if they are in the True Church.


God Bless,
ironmonk [/quote]
Mulls,

Thank you for proving my point.... I wish you would prove the above point wrong... then you would be better off.


Yes. That is the Church started by Christ.

You would be wise to study how the House of God is the House of Our King. God is litterally present in the Temple. He was before Christ came to earth, and He is after Christ came to earth.

He is our King, and the House of God is His Palace.

Please stick to the main topic.

If you are in the Church started by Christ, please show us some of the Early Church Fathers which believe everything that you do... that would agree with everything that your church teaches.

For example... One I would pick if someone asked me was St. Augustine... he believes everything that I believe. St. Ignatius is another one. None of their writings contradict what I believe... they support what I believe... Hence why I am Catholic. Because it is the Church established by Christ.


God Bless,
ironmonk

Edited November 25, 2004 by ironmonk

[mulls]

for real, just study that picture.

think thats how Jesus thinks of worship?

doesn't really remind me of the book of Acts.

maybe i'm wrong. but honestly use some perspective....what does that look like to you guys?

[ironmonk]

[quote name='mulls' date='Nov 25 2004, 12:50 AM'] for real, just study that picture.

think thats how Jesus thinks of worship?

doesn't really remind me of the book of Acts.

maybe i'm wrong. but honestly use some perspective....what does that look like to you guys? [/quote]
Everyone...

Notice the avoidence of the topic. When anti-Catholics don't have an answer against the Church, they try a red herring to change the subject.


Mulls,

Where are the photos in the book of Acts?

Where you there?

Have you ever seen a Jewish Temple where they believe that God is present? Why do you think the Temple in Jerusalem was so adorn with Jewels before Christ's time? Because God is King and was present.

You would benefit greatly from real study instead of anti-Catholic bigotry and misplaced scron.

Please stick to the topic... if you are in Christ's Church, it would be easy to do.


God Bless,
ironmonk

Edited November 25, 2004 by ironmonk

[cmotherofpirl]

If you think of the Old Testament and the Temple of the Lord, imagine the priest offering the first fruits to God. Did you ever read what the priest wore, or how reverent the sacrifice was. Being at the altar of God is being at the beginnings of the heavenly banquet surrounded by choirs of angels and saints singing "Holy Holy Holy God, Lord God Almighty"

"Blessed are You, O Lord God king of the Universe, for the fruit of the Vine." Jesus is the First Fruit of the Father.

Edited November 25, 2004 by cmotherofpirl

[mulls]

everyone,

look at ironmonk be a tough guy and try to call me out as an anti-catholic. look at him get defensive.

i'm definately not avoiding anything. if you introduce something into a topic, such as a giant picture of "Christ's church" in your sig, than it's fair game. relax buddy. relax.

"If anyone is in a church that cannot show at least two people in each century since Christ that do not contradict anything taught by that church today, then they are in the wrong church."

in a church-- as in an institution....not a corporate gathering of believers, but an actual "thing." since our definitions of church don't match up, and since most protestants definitions of church won't match up with yours, your little challenge is rendered moot.

get off your high horse, and quit calling people out.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='mulls' date='Nov 25 2004, 01:07 AM'] everyone,

look at ironmonk be a tough guy and try to call me out as an anti-catholic. look at him get defensive.

i'm definately not avoiding anything. if you introduce something into a topic, such as a giant picture of "Christ's church" in your sig, than it's fair game. relax buddy. relax.

"If anyone is in a church that cannot show at least two people in each century since Christ that do not contradict anything taught by that church today, then they are in the wrong church."

in a church-- as in an institution....not a corporate gathering of believers, but an actual "thing." since our definitions of church don't match up, and since most protestants definitions of church won't match up with yours, your little challenge is rendered moot.

get off your high horse, and quit calling people out. [/quote]
Maybe you feel it's a high horse because you cannot prove the Catholic Church wrong.

The sig is another topic. You should start a new thread for that... the sigs follow through on all posts by a user.

Not getting defensive at all... simple facts.

What did the first Christians (say before 700 AD) believe "Church" meant?

Show us some that believe it was what you think it is.

Surely if you are correct on the meaning of Church, the first Christians would believe the same thing... since the Church will not be overcome... since Christ promised the Church to be guided in all truth.... since the Apostles called the Church the Pillar and Foundation of Truth.... Surely you can find someone who believes "Church" to mean a group of believers who disagree on this belief or that belief??? Can you????


Calling people out? Tough? LOL No bro... just simple facts.

If x and y is true, then z must be true also.... Logic bro.

People keep telling me I'm wrong... then prove it... I want to be right... I don't want to be wrong. I have changed for Christ, and I will change for Christ.

Please stop trying to dodge the topic... just do it.

Find them before 700 AD to prove me wrong...

What do you think it means if you cannot find anyone before 700 AD that believes "Church" to be the same definition as you?

What do you think it means if you cannot find anyone who believes the same things that you do from before 700 AD?


Trying to get you to think bro...

Every post that you make without doing it, just proves that you're trying to change the topic...

You are an anti-Catholic... you attack the Church on grounds that are not true or because of the way someone treated you or didn't treat you who happened to be Catholic. It's not the Christ's fault that Catholics did't try to keep you Catholic. Maybe they thought you were smart and would find the truth on your own or thought you should find it on your own.... Life's a learning lesson. Seek the Truth, then learn. Think. Add one and one. Use logic and reason couple with facts that are given... Does it all add up?

I've simply pointed out facts given in the New Testament, and if Christ is God, then He cannot be wrong or lie. Then that would mean what I posted is true...
The Church will never be overcome. The Church is One Faith. It will be like a city on a mountain which cannot be hidden. Which means that the One Faith will be visiable for all time for all to see.


I say again, please don't get sidetracked... please first do this before replying to me on any other topic.....

What did the first Christians (say before 700 AD) believe "Church" meant?
Here is the protestant set: [url="http://www.logos.com/products/details/518"]http://www.logos.com/products/details/518[/url]

Note: The Early Church Fathers CD-ROM comes in two versions, Protestant and Catholic. Simply put, the difference is that the Protestant edition contains additional front matter written at a later date. There is no difference in the actual ECF text.

You can read them all for free here: [url="http://www.NewAdvent.org/Fathers/"]http://www.NewAdvent.org/Fathers/[/url]

Show us some that believe it was what you think it is.

Surely if you are correct on the meaning of Church, the first Christians would believe the same thing... since the Church will not be overcome... since Christ promised the Church to be guided in all truth.... since the Apostles called the Church the Pillar and Foundation of Truth.... Surely you can find someone who believes "Church" to mean a group of believers who disagree on this belief or that belief??? Can you????



God Bless,
ironmonk

[Balthazor]

Well a mass is the highest fom of worship mulls. I know that when you look at the picture and see how rich and eleborate everything is you may raise an eyebrow. And go Jesus was poor and here you Catholics are in gold and incense and splendor.

But there is a reason for all the granduer, we love Christ dearly, and we want to give Him the best of eveything we have....it is natural to want to make something beautiful after all and I think it is natural to want to give the Best to God.

But you see the mass can be celebrated just as easily and validly if there were nothing but a tin cup to hold the Precious blood, instead of a golden chalice. However if you can afford it a gold chalice is much better.

The church is very old, even monastaries in which the monks are sworn to poverty, tend to have treasures and lands, as the centuries go by good common people and rich people and whoever may make a donation, or leave a land or money in a will. This isn't because the Church is taking it from people it is because people gave to the Church. Things add up after a couple centuries you know I look at my basement and wonder where all the stuff came from.

If you have never been to a mass I would suggest you go and see want it is all about. You may feel differently about it after words:)

[mulls]

balthazor thank you for the intelligent response, i really appreciate it. thats the kind of dialogue i like.

btw i grew up catholic, been to mass week in and week out for 19 years, so i know what its about. moreso now than i did then. but pictures like those really throw me for a loop sometimes....that stuff and the vatican stuff.

[Balthazor]

Thank you for the lovely complement mulls

Believe it or not there is usually a reason why catholics do what they do.

I just want to elaborate and correct a little bit on my "tin cup" statement....
(before someone does it for me )

Just so you know.
The general stand of the church is that the chalice should be made of a precious metal (so it won't break, yup...that means no crystal) or at least lined in precious metal. Gold is used because it is not only a fitting material for the sacredness of the vessels purpose, but also because it is practical.
Gold doesn't rust and it doesn't tarnish, and doesn;t shatter and it has a very smooth and shiny finish...you can see if you missed a piece of the Eucharist on the patton or in the chalice. This is important, since we believe in transubstantiation even a tiny piece of the host is actually Jesus, body, soul and divinty, and to miss it in the chalice or on the patton would not be a very respectful or very good thing in general.

Generally we make everything as nice as we can possibly afford in a vain effort to try and make the vessel and the space more fitting for the Sacredness of it's purpose.

I am sorry for hijacking the thread iron
And I am sorry for getting so off toic with you too mulls...I just looked back ot my statement and figured I better elaborate a little on my own comment. But if nothing else maybe ya learned something you didn't know before.

Ok I am done now you guys can go back to the talking about Christ's Church now....sorry again.

God bless,
Balthazor