sex in heaven

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='Balthazor' date='Nov 24 2004, 05:11 PM'] but if the only end to sex were procreation then why do we even bother to teach NFP?

[/quote]
I think this is a very good topic for discussion. In fact, I think a thread should be started to discuss the end or ends of the marital act.

However, how is it relevant to the discussion of whether or not there is sex in heaven.

[Guest Aluigi]

the nature of sex is an important question to answer to show the reason there would be no sex in heaven.

sex is meant to be procreative and unitive. pleasure is the side effect God put into it to make it more desireable. you cannot have sex simply for the unitive aspect, you shouldn't have sex simply for the procreative aspect (because if you're not in love with your spouse and doing it for unity, your family isn't likely to be close)

Natural Family Planning is abstaining from sex from certain times. when you do have sex, you must still be open to life (NFP doesn't always work, so you're still leavin the oppurtunity for God to bless you with children by being fully open, and keeping the pure unity without blocking anything, just at specific times when a baby is unlikely)

It would be a sin to practice NFP saying either you never wanted your marriage to have children or that you were trying to plan your family to make sure you were in control of how many children you have. God must be in control. You may do the dance of sex only during unlikely times, but you still have to be open to children and you especially should never do that indefinitely, only for the time period you would either be in a health danger to have children or for the time period you would be financially unable to sustain it. there has to be an important reason, couples can't just do NFP because they don't want children, they'd be disobeying God's command to be fruitful and multiply.

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='Aluigi' date='Nov 24 2004, 07:29 PM'] It would be a sin to practice NFP saying either you never wanted your marriage to have children or [b] that you were trying to plan your family to make sure you were in control of how many children you have. [/b] God must be in control.  You may do the dance of sex only during unlikely times, but you still have to be open to children and you especially should never do that indefinitely, only for the time period you would either be in a health danger to have children or for the time period you would be financially unable to sustain it. [/quote]
This is not true. I believe there was thread on the Q/A board about this.

From the answer:

[quote]But in his encyclical Humanae Vitae, Pope Paul VI clearly mentions the responsibility on married couples to plan their families, taking into account the means available to them to raise their children etc. It sounds to me like you and your husband remain open to the transmission of life, and that you are doing what Pope Paul had in mind when he wrote his encyclical.
[/quote]

[Thy Geekdom Come]

HSmom is correct in her last post.

NFP can be used to plan children out in order better to provide for them, but not in a way essentially meant to castrate and remove all fruitfulness. It can only be used to avoid pregnancy permanently if it is for grave reasons, as Adeodatus also answered in his reply.

[Guest Aluigi]

let me re-word that.

if you're doing it to take full control of your reproduction, it's a sin. you must always be open to life within your marriage.

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='Aluigi' date='Nov 24 2004, 07:40 PM'] let me re-word that.

if you're doing it to take full control of your reproduction, it's a sin. you must always be open to life within your marriage. [/quote]
I don't understand how that is different from the previous post...

[Guest Aluigi]

you can take prudent action to prevent overbearing on your family, but it must be for a purpose, a necessity. you must still be open to life.

[homeschoolmom]

but you can try to be in control of the number of children you conceive and still be open to life... they don't necessarily contradict each other.

[Guest Aluigi]

there has to be a legitimate either health or financial reason, and you still must humbly allow God to be in real charge of how many people are in your family. If God wants you to have more while you through prayer and discernment have determined it would be financially unable (say God disagrees...) He'll either cause you to mess up the planning or make sure you get pregnant anyway.

i still hold that it's wrong, if you are in a decent financial situation, to say "we will only have x number of children". now, if that statement is completed by "because we are financially unable to sustain them" or because "it would be unhealthy" then NFP in order to limit yourself to x number is okay.

[Guest JeffCR07]

Hey pham, I'm home for the weekend, so I wont be able to post as much, but Theology of the Body is one of my points of interest, and so I would like to comment on something very fundamental to the discussion, and that (I hope) will return us to the question of Delivery Boy's.

As John Paul II and the Church have taught us, the reason that sex is so good is because it is one thing on earth that most closely images the Most Holy Trinity. We understand the Trinity as being a Perfect Exchange of Love, in which the Father infinitely loves the Son, the Son infinitely returns the love of the Father, and that Love between them [i]is[/i] the Holy Spirit.

Sex, in turn, is an icon of this Trinitarian relation within the Godhead, for only in sex does the husband unconditionally love the wife, the wife unconditionally love the husband, and the love between them can indeed beget a third person, namely, a child.

Now, we humans are, in our nature and essence, a union of spiritual and physical. Thus, it is only good and proper that the act of imaging the Blessed Trinity, which is a supreme spiritual good, also be an act that is physically pleasing. However, it is only because we have Fallen and are no longer in a state of Sanctifying Grace that we can intellectually seperate that which was, originally, not seperate. Thus, we, in our sinfulness, seperate the physical aspect of sex from the spiritual and seek and value only the former, rather than celebrating the latter and former together, as is good and proper.

Now, with this all being understood, let us address the question: will there be sex in heaven?

The answer is a definitive "No." Before, however, one rails on how "terrible" this fact is, I urge everyone to strongly consider the reasoning why, and it will all be made clear:

As we have said, sex is good precisely because it images the Trinity. After Christ's Second Coming, however, we will live, physically, with Christ, and will be in perfect communion with the Trinity. Moreover, we will actually ourselves partake in that Divine Love, or, more directly, we will actually and really partake in the Divine Life of the Trinity. For that reason, there will be no need - or desire - for sex, why in the world would we desire the image or icon of a thing when the thing itself is open to us?

Allow me to draw a useful analogy that I believe will bring home the point:

The reason we value a family picture is because when we are away from home it allows us to look upon an image of our loved ones and feel, in some small way, reunited with them, though far away they may be. Certainly, looking at the picture is pleasurable, however, if we had the choice between looking at the picture or being actually and really reunited with them, we will of course choose to be with them really. Moreover, one cannot look at the picture and "be with" family simultaneously for two reasons. First, if we could imagine both together, we see immediately that drawing attention to the picture brings attention away from the family. Second, and more important, the picture loses its value when the family is there: The picture is only worthwhile when we are seperated from the family, and so is unnecessary (and even a waste) when we are with them.

Like the analogy of the picture, sex helps us to "remember" God and to be united in a small way during our time of seperation. However, when we are really, truly, and eternally reunited with Christ Jesus, and have the opportunity to forever partake in the Divine Life of the Trinity, not only would sex draw attention from that greatest of mysteries, but it would, really and truly, lose its value and efficacy.

- Your Brother In Christ, Jeff

[God Conquers]

I just wrote an entire 20 page paper on how sex withing marriage was seen and taught by the CHurch as being both unitive AND procreative IN THE MIDDLE AGES.

I'm not sure how I'd post it.......

Tertullian was the first to distinguish two purposes. I can quote some stuff if anyone objects to this view...

The regular magesterium now teaches that the purpose of sex is both unitive and procreative, what makes you think it was any different pre-VII? Or at any time previously?

[God Conquers]

Granted.... these two purposes are and must be inextricably linked in each instance of the act.

[Guest]

ok my thing is this
were gonna have bodies in heaven
beautiful bodies, im sure, correct ??
say you see your wife in heaven
she is gonna have a body, a beautiful body
i do not see how your still not gonna be attracted to this body
i dont see how you would not want to be intimate with this body
i dont see nothing sinister about that either
God gave us sex as a gift
i dont think he would take that away from us
sure, heaven cant be some place where we "sleep around " lol
but i do think, that the possibilty for physical contact is gonna be there
and will be accepted by God....I think this will be a gift from God
I can see how mabey sex wont be desired as much
becuz we will be in perect harmony with God
but we will eat in heaven to, even though its not need'd
I think its kinda crazy to say
No way will we have sex
I think the possiblity is there
and i hope when i see the gurl i really loved from this age, that i got seperated from, i pray that when we meet in heaven, we will be able to share Gods beautiful gift with each other....

I also pray i can dunk from the foul line

Edited November 25, 2004 by Guest

[JP2Iloveyou]

JMJ
11/25 - Thanksgiving Day

Delivery Boy,

Maybe this analogy will work.

When you're five years old, the best thing in the world that you can possibly think of is a candy bar. There's nothing more that a five year old could want - it tastes good, it's got chocolate, it's everything you could want.

When a boy ages a little more, though, he realizes that there's something in this world better than chocolate bars - it's called sex. Not only is sex better than candy, it has this strange ability to lift us up to the divine, if used correctly.

When we die, we enter a new stage and find there's something even better than sex - the vision of the Face of God. When sex is viewed as the best thing in the world, it doesn't make candy bars bad - it just makes them useless, to an extent. If I'm married, what am I going to want on my wedding night? Candy bars?

If I should be so blessed to enter Heaven and see the Face of God, what am I going to want - sex? It doesn't mean sex is bad; it's just that its worth becomes that of a candy bar to a married man.

[Guest Aluigi]

Jesus said after the ressurection of the body we will neither marry nor be married. That's why marriage vows say "till death do you part" because that's when the marriage is over, when death parts you. If your scenario was correct, widows and widowers would not be allowed to get married. as it stands, they are. Jewish tradition even required widows to get married to the brother of their husband.

Heaven is like a constant orgasm, John Paul II said the marital orgasm is a foretaste of the ecstacy of heaven. You don't need sex to feel that way, you're in the Beatific Vision (you see God face to face)

[Guest]

i get what your sayen
but still
why then would we eat in heaven ?
eating is not nessesary, but we'll still do it
its pleasurable to eat, i think thats why we'll do it
i mean, i know i cant grasp heaven
and i know eath smells of elderberries, but at the same time i think earth is blessed
i mean i sure to God hope when i get to heaven there's a pick-up basketball game, i hope i can go play football, i hope i can do all the things i love doing here on earth......i get what your sayen about the constant satisfaction we'll have being face to face to God.....but still, were gonna have big giant cribs in heaven lol ya know ?? i mean i hope my manison has an elevator and a olympic size pool and a bowling alley in it.....In my mind Heaven is gonna be like this, and its gonna be alota stuf i cant even imagine either.......but thats why i stick to my hope that sex is something that will be included, sure just walking down the Golden streets in heaven will be better then sex, and im not even here to argure that sex is the best thing on planet earth. Hell im not sexually active, im no saint either, ive had my expericences with females, but theres tons of things i love doing on planet earth that dont involve anything to do with sex.....i love to here a phat beat and try to write a tight song to it, i love to be tied at a game of basketball with the ball in my hands and the chance to win...so i mean im not fix'ated on sex...im just stateing that i hope that when i get to heaven i can lay with a beautiful gurl i love and cuddle with her and if God finds it approriate it, be able to have a relationship with her that he blessed me to have

Edited November 25, 2004 by Guest

[littleflower+JMJ]

the question your asking is like asking "will i still be able to date when and after i get married?"

it contradicts each other.

marriage is clearly better than dating--such as heaven will be better than any earthly pleasure

look at heaven on God's terms and glory and not on our own and you shouldn't go wrong.

pax +JMJ+

[Tink]

[quote name='JP2Iloveyou' date='Nov 25 2004, 06:00 AM'] JMJ
11/25 - Thanksgiving Day

Delivery Boy,

Maybe this analogy will work.

When you're five years old, the best thing in the world that you can possibly think of is a candy bar. There's nothing more that a five year old could want - it tastes good, it's got chocolate, it's everything you could want.

When a boy ages a little more, though, he realizes that there's something in this world better than chocolate bars - it's called sex. Not only is sex better than candy, it has this strange ability to lift us up to the divine, if used correctly.

When we die, we enter a new stage and find there's something even better than sex - the vision of the Face of God. When sex is viewed as the best thing in the world, it doesn't make candy bars bad - it just makes them useless, to an extent. If I'm married, what am I going to want on my wedding night? Candy bars?

If I should be so blessed to enter Heaven and see the Face of God, what am I going to want - sex? It doesn't mean sex is bad; it's just that its worth becomes that of a candy bar to a married man. [/quote]
Oh my gosh, I love your analogy!

I love analogies in general...lol.

[Seminarian C]

Right on, you go Jeff.

[crusader1234]

I know a lot of people that would still want a candy bar on their wedding night... food, sex, and TV, its a natural combination. Just ask George.

(Note: I don't really care about what happens in heaven, since we know we'll get everything we want, and I wouldn't be even a little surprised if we realise once we get there that there is something better than sex and candy bars... but for those of you who want sex in heaven, or sex with tv and food for that matter, don't worry about it. You'll be satisfied)